The Green Scare and its Fallout in the Rogue

D. Qotsaisaw, 21.05.2007 11:17

Recently at a KS Wild fundraiser in the Applegate, two people were in attendance of dubious character. The two persons, Suzanne “India” Savoie and Luke Rudigger, are the widely known Federal Informants who have more than compromised their solidarity with former comrades Jonathan Paul and Daniel McGowan, as well as others in the region’s activist community, which has lead to these person’s current trials where they are facing, along with others, “terrorism enhancement” charges which would severely increase their sentences. This much is indisputable.

Why these two people were allowed to attend a meeting where other activists were in attendance, has become a contentious issue with many judgments and insults leveled at all involved. Given that KS Wild is an effective group that works hard and is quite successful in their endeavors, and I am glad to call some of them my friends, they are not immune from criticism in this issue. Allowing two known informants to remain in attendance for any reason at any function not only is a slap in the face to other activists and particularly those who are having their lives drastically changed at this moment as wells as their families, friends, and loved ones, it is a security risk for all others who attended as Luke and Suzanne have an ongoing status as life-long informants which makes their presence anywhere a continuous threat.

As Suzanne and Luke are now committed to a life of being obliged informants, they should be quite decisively and quickly dealt with at any function to let them know that what they did, which is deep and wide in scope, is unacceptable. Anyone, individually or as a group, who allows these people to remain at any sort of function not only greatly disrespects the comrades who face an unjust and corrupt system to decide their fate because of Luke and Suzanne, they are condoning such behavior with their simple complicity, and likewise should not be supported in any way.

I never would want that KS Wild lose their effectiveness, but if they think it is okay to sell out their local grassroots counterparts to retain some margin of benefit to their agenda and its fulfillment, then they lose all credibility. There are implicit tenants of solidarity, even among informal relationships within a community, which never should be allowed to be compromised period. If KS Wild could admit their grievous oversight and make sure it is never to be repeated, they may have room enough to regain local confidences

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heroin addict is only snitch to some 22.05.2007 - 13:38 i don't live in your community, but having been active for two decades and seen some fall to the industrial complex or killed, the only one I'd consider a snitch is that asshole who wore wires and set people up. he can rot in hell. these two, they buckled under pressure of death behind bars. trust them on things like CD or other night activities, hell no. if they now want to be above board activists challenging old growth sales or other issues, why not. picking and choosing your battles is a wise choice, to allow polorization amongst folks with idealism, gives the gov to much power. if they are true snitches like heroin boy, it will show over time. all the energy into attacking them is better spent attacking the cause that created the situation in the first place. put the energies directed at the freddies or blm or the corporations and just now that anything not above board can't be trusted with those who caved, doesn't mean that can't be worked with. with that said, i'd also expect an explanation at some point when it's all said and done from those who caved as to why they caved. i don't want to hear from heroin boy though why he wore a wire and turned into a pig to support his drug habit; that rat bastard can rot like fungus and in time his karma will take care of him on his own. not sure of twits name> Ripple Effect of COINTELPRO 22.05.2007 - 14:38 This reactionary post illustrates the ripple effect of the Operation Backfire COINTELPRO mission carried out by the Federal authorities. I am glad that D. Qotsaisaw kept us informed, I want to know where and what these folks are. Points to consider; 1. Suzanne "India" Savoie and Luke Rudigger are the ones you are aware of. The turncoats you are not aware of are the ones who will hurt you. 2. Labeling people as "dubious characters" is self defeating. Savoie and Ruddiger might be fine people who were caught, intimidated beyond our ccomprehension, and turned to self salvation as opposed to movement safety. I will not judge them. I only hope I never have to make a similiar decision. 3. KS Wild is NOT Suzanne "India" Savoie and Luke Rudigger. To chastise KS Wild for who attends their meetings is pointless. This perspective is dynamic in the sense that Qotsaisaw did not inform us as to the level of Savoie and Rudiggers' participation in the meeting. If the two, for example, are on KS Wild's BoD, this perspective would change. Again, thank you Qotsaisaw for your reporting of this. BTW, Jake Ferguson is the fellow referred to in the previous post. You need to remember his name, as he is free, unindicted, and cruising around Eugene as we speak. He was at Fall Creek in 99, and many people here know him. I do not have his photo at the moment, yet it was posted several times on PDX Indy after the December 06 arrests. mambo> Important Info still the same 22.05.2007 - 19:50 I appreciate that people are able to think critically about my post. Since this post, KS Wild has issued an apology to the individuals who are suffering currently in courts, and will continue to suffer in prison, and their families. They admit there was an oversight on their part, and wish to be 'left alone' so that they may continue their work and they will not waste any more time on the issue. On this point I can see their need to move on and I've wasted no more time myself about this issue, except writing here. Frankly, even though I believe personally KS Wild needed to address and honestly deal with this issue better and sooner than they initially did and with more sensitivity and an eye to not just their own level of tolerance of these people, they do have a lot of important work to do which they're good at, and even though I found their apology lacking in a few regards, they are best left to continue their work. My orientation towards KS Wild will be forever more cautious. I don't know the other authors' experiences in the activist world, but there is no safe measure of involvement by individuals who are known collaborators, and continue to be actively engaged informants. I don't care if it's a quilting bee or what. A foot in the door now equals a wide measure of access later; on this point we may just simply disagree, but that is my hard-earned experience and personal security protocol. To create levels of betrayal and place Luke and Suzanne in a lesser category than Jake is laughable. 45 minutes of research will show that these folks are just as much threats as Jake, one just can't throw in the convienantly demeaning title of drug addict. And the fact that Luke and Suzanne are obliged and confirmed on-going informants simply precludes them from any form of participation where they can put names and faces together, and while this is a simple function, the fallout of such 'ground-truthing' has incredible devastating consequences. It may be each person's personal choice whether to interact with Luke and India, but there is a long-proven implicit ethic of solidarity that has existed around the world for a long time and that exists here, that one does not associate, for your own and other's safety, with collaborators PERIOD. D. Qotsaisaw> act alone 22.05.2007 - 19:55 all this reactive energy misses the central lesson of this case. if you choose to directly act, do it alone. there existed bad blood between the above named informants and the individuals now criticizing KS Wild long before the Applegate benefit event. this broadcast only drags a kick-ass legal organization, which keeps more habitat intact than any night action ever could, into a personal feud between former co-workers that best remains ignored. COINTELPRO neutralizes an effective movement by sowing distrust. do nothing with any informer, and nobody can implicate. act alone. you'll live more free and like people more. perhaps the original post above comes straight from the FBI. tecumtum> Now this is wasting time 22.05.2007 - 20:50 The above suggestion that I may be an operative of the FBI is truly reactionary and a simplistic way to try and easily dismiss me and my opinion, not to mention an insult. I have my right to opinion and if you're intolerant of that then you're more ignorant of the very real threat of infiltrators and the whole fastly descending hammer of the federal version of justice than most. Yes, this issue has been around for at least the 18 months of this trial, and definitely longer, and for good reason. There are many who are good friends of those now on trial and emotions are high; those who sold them out are being called out for legitimate reasons; KS Wild being a local organization should be aware of this issue, yet they act like this reaction from other activists in the community came out of left field. It is the result of their insulation from this real world threat and concern. Given they have been busy doing effective and good work and this may not have been on their radar, but they have apologized, to their credit, that this is a wide concern that they did not address immediately and effectively. If a community being vigilant concerning who is acting complicity and purposely with federal agencies, than all the more reason for the immediate voicing of the concern as why these people are being accepted. Yes, CoIntelPro seeks to create division and instigate acts that will implicate and lead to indictments of the groups they infiltrate. That is why vigilance and community solidarity is ever more important. You quickly associate the critics of KS Wild as being of a tactics directly polar to KS Wild. This is very inciteful, a CoIntelPro tactic. Why do you assume this? That would serve to smear many people who have not made this statement; this creates diversion and rumor that 'we' are saboteurs and are less effective than KS Wild. How little you actually know, and your casual implication that I would be an infiltrator just shows your immaturity and inexperience more; that is a serious charge and a vengeful slight at the least; one meant to provoke in the vein of CoIntelPro. History is rife with people who became even just mildly accepting of those who represented an agency whose intent was to dominant, and vilify within their own self-justified system that peoples who were "other" would be alienated, then vilified, then detained and killed. You may think this is hyperbole, but an honest search of history will show that far reaching evil has begun on less notable events than this. Do not sling accusations at me just to hide your ignorance. D. Qotsaisaw> Happened again... 22.05.2007 - 23:10 I'm sorry your post was deleted from the Portland Indymedia, it deserves to be there. As someone who has had numerous posts about the informants deleted by Portland Indymedia, I can tell you that the "greenscare" snitches have a lot of friends in the movement, so many so that Portland Indymedia deletes posts that discuss the subject. It's all about popularity, and many of the snitches in this case are extremely popular well-loved people by their fellow hippie liberals. I say *most*- I've seen countless people arguing about how Darren Thurston is still a hero of the highest order, even though he's a snitch, but not one post in defense of Jen Kolar, who was never the beloved rock star that Darren is. The moral of the story? Like a high school football captain or some other icon of pop cultural awesomeness, you can get away with whatever you want, so long as you're one of the cool kids. And of course, it helps if you're popular enough to be able to get Portland Indymedia to censor posts in your favor, too. Sabrina> interesting 23.05.2007 - 00:23 D. Qotsaisaw.... valid points, thanks for the thoughts... still categorize jake as worse than the rest... and ultimately, it's the rat bastard corporations and greed that are the root of this particular problem folks are having to deal with in this day and age. only took years and years of yelling fire in the movie theater to get global climate change acknowledged or that clear cutting is bad. rock star point, valid also... on another note, what the heck is up with the BLM? Read that they want to wholesale more and more swaths of old growth. That agency has had decades of destruction and illegality about their timber giveaways; why aren't they in court explaining their idiotic actions instead of the sabatouers  http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2007/05/359783.shtml not sure of twits name> Wow! 23.05.2007 - 01:36 The vibrant dialogue on this topic directly correlates to the importance of the original post. I once again extend thanks to D. Qotsaisaw for that post. Question - Why has PDX Indy deleted Qotsaisaw's posting and all the commentary it spawned? It does not even appear in their Compost Bin, a feature I wish Rogue Indy had. Sabrina's post here takes on weight, eh? Rogue Indy is to be commended and appreciated for keeping this dialogue alive. People in PDX are aware of this issue and are paying attention via Rogue Indy. tecumtum's post raised a couple of points that are extremely valuable to consider, IMHO. They are: !. Act alone, thereby no one can compromise you and, by extension, the goals. 2. "perhaps the original post above comes straight from the FBI." Suspect everyone and everything. Stay alone. Qotsaisaw interpreted this as a personal slam in an environment that is very impersonal. Honestly, Qotsaisaw, I think tecumteh was speaking to a general concept. I may be wrong, per tecumteh's references regarding a "personal feud between former co-workers..." I have, nor want to have, knowledge of these workplace issues yet it remains that the message of suspecting every one and every thing is a reality of the front line. On a seperate note, an interesting reality is how virtually all "mainstream" organizations, including KS Wild, ONRG (now Oregon Wild), Waterwatch, EarthJustice, Sierra Club et.al, have disavowed all connections and support for direct action volunteers. I suppose the reason is in the "mainstream" part of their description, yet a another comment from tecumteh appears to say that better - "...a kick-ass legal organization, which keeps more habitat intact than any night action ever could..." Both tecumteh and Sabrina made references to knowledge that, while I think is best not discussed here, deserves examination by all who are cencerned with what is happening and the forces that are determined at allow this consumerist model to stay the course. If there is a"'rock star" paradigm in place, if personal issues are taking the fore ahead of central movement goals, we need to discuss, adapt, and move forward. PDX Indy, for example, helps no one and no thing by hiding this discussion. I am sure FBI is enjoying the surface dissension within our ranks, yet why we are better is because we do think about process. mambo> Ummmm 23.05.2007 - 01:58 read through the train, did my own psycho-analysis of the authors here, thinking, "I bet this one's the fed, no, wait, I bet that other one is." Then I had to take a shit. Upon reflection during this awe inspiring act, I had this thought: O.K., at least one of the above authors has just gotta be a fed. First you might think "it's gotta be the long winded one". Then you might muse "no, that's probably what they want us to think is, so it's probably the smoother one". Follow? And I bet that's Cointelpro for ya: Mind fuck. Keep the activists brain cells more occupied with paranoia based thought processes than organizing. This who's who game, and who's to blame for this and that, uses up energy that could be channeled toward issues... Yeah, it's a serious game, and in my opinion, one that exposes the fatal flaw in any property destruction/illegal activities: Firstly, the machine is capable of throwing huge force back and just won't tolerate it. Secondly, if more activits would stubbornly dig in solid on long term campaigns to gain permanent protection for the region, recruit more mainstreamers, etc., we could get alot more protected out there. Yeah, not as sexy. Thirdly, large elements within greater environmental movement now suffers from broad inappropriate labeling of "eco-terrorist", which is why the whole thing is so brilliant. The feds blow these crimes up for public sympathy, scare the piss out of enviros everywhere by bestowing horribly long jail sentences, and the net result is that more activits - and potential activists - are staying home. No way to count the numbers of people backing out of traditional enviro activities cause they're scared they might accidently sit next to a "dangerous" one at a event or protest, and get put on a list or something. Spinless bullshit, but true. Most of the above posters all mention how great KS Wild's work is. There's a clue. I bet they could put all kinds of volunteers to good use. The other stuff sucks energy and distracts from getting work done. CD in the light of day is an honored tradition, and if big enough can be dammed effective. Who cares who's a fed. Truth is, it's probably the ones you'd least suspect. Big Brother's doing his job well. don't matter> re: comments 23.05.2007 - 08:27 indymedia. i am confused as to why the post was deleted on portland indymedia as well. i wanted to chime in on a few themes i am noticing... i feel like emotions are running high, and given present circumstances, this is completely understandable. however, i feel like arbitrarily throwing out the terms "feds" and "COINTELPRO" are not really useful and either intentionally or unintentionally stifle critical dialogue about the real points that the article brought up. surely, there might be unwanted folks reading these posts. that's beside the point, and given the nature of the internet, that's surely a given. the point is the FACTUAL information being brought up in D. Qotsaisaw's post, namely: 1) "The two persons, Suzanne “India” Savoie and Luke Rudigger, are the widely known Federal Informants who have more than compromised their solidarity with former comrades Jonathan Paul and Daniel McGowan" 2) "Suzanne and Luke are now committed to a life of being obliged informants" 3) KS Wild is indirectly fraternizing or socializing with Luke and India in act i would note that KS Wild has made some kind of response to these issues, at least through emails, but in my opinion, the response has fallen short of directly adressing the issue and taking accountability for the issues raised above. also, i'm wondering why it has not been posted pubically anywhere... further, i wanted to respond specifically to some of the abusurd, anti-critical blanket statements made by the poster, "don't matter", who wrote the following: "the machine is capable of throwing huge force back and just won't tolerate it." "if more activits would stubbornly dig in solid on long term campaigns to gain permanent protection for the region, recruit more mainstreamers, etc., we could get alot more protected out there." "No way to count the numbers of people backing out of traditional enviro activities cause they're scared they might accidently sit next to a "dangerous" one at a event or protest" this is, unfortunately, a very common voice in the liberal enviromentalist circle. these comments suggests it's activists own fault for militant resistance ("you should have known better"), or if just enough people would participate or "wake up" the destruction would stop (the appeal to bulding a mass movement based on the assumption that all people need is more information), and the reason people aren't participating in "traditional" enviro activities is because they're scared. first, these claims are unsubstantiated by any reality other than that in the authors head, and second, it avoids being sensitive to the fact that people have numerous reasons for not participating in "traditional" environmental activities. to speculate on just a few: capitalist coercion (most of us are tied to a capitalist framework to meet our daily needs and how difficult and time consuming depending on one's race/class/gender/ability location in this society) and the continual ineffectiveness of much 'direct action' (just one recent example: the fiddler protests in 2005). it's easier to assume that it's other people's fault that the environmental movement is so ineffective, rather than critically examine one's own tactics, assumptions, and privilege location in the claims one is making about other people. here's hoping for a less loaded, critically astute dialogue... sincerely, a traveler a traveler> Why Portland IMC didn't post this article 23.05.2007 - 10:08 As I talked personally with two KS Wild folks who I considered friends about my posting this letter to Rogue IMC and the Ashland Daily Tidings, I thought it better to wait so KS Wild would have a chance to respond, which they did. I was attempting to reign in my incensed emotions to give KS Wild more than a fair shake, even thought this issue has been around for years. I tried to rescind both submissions, but was only successful in the Ashland Tidings Case, although I think Portland IMC did get the message and that's why it was erased there. With KS Wild having made an apology, although not publicly apparently, I'm glad my letter got some play and by the looks of things there are plenty of people who thought it was important enough as well to be considered. I know that at least one of the posters is a key staff member at KS Wild and it's a little yellow-bellied in my book to level implications at me under a pseudonym on a public venue. I was giving KS Wild an opportunity to come up with a response which they did, although it was probably written I think to say to some of us what we wanted to hear, and not very well at that. Unfortunately I deleted the email and can't re-post it. Maybe the mentioned poster above would be willing to share the apology so people can judge for themselves (how 'bout it, tecumtum?) and not take my opinion for it? I am dismayed at the lack of maturity on the part of many in this issue. I despise issues that turn friends into adversaries, and I never made personal insults at anyone throughout this whole event, and gave KS Wild its nod for doing great work, while maintaining a simple criticism that I feel they didn't handle well and that has a lot to do with the integrity of the community. That to me is the heart of the issue, the rest is secondary D. Qotsaisaw> ks wild apology 23.05.2007 - 10:13 >KS Wild has come under recent attack for 'supporting FBI >informants,' and I'd like to clear things up. We do not support FBI >informants, and we apologize if our inattention to this issue >unintentionally insulted those who are currently embroiled in a very >serious court battle. While it has been difficult to wade through >the hyperbole, insults, and threats hurled at us in recent days to >get to the truth of the matter, it is increasingly apparent that >many activists have an understandable and deeply held fear of >further oppression from the FBI and its informants. We do not want >to foster an environment that makes others in the community feel >unsafe. Indeed, we have endeavored to create a community where all >who care for the earth feel respected and valued. We are a >non-profit conservation organization, and many of the broader issues >of these cases are thus outside of our organizational focus, but we >would never intentionally do anything to harm those for whom they >are not. > >Like all of you, we have important work to do to save our ancient >forests and critters. We would appreciate it if you discontinue your >attacks on our organization, as we are now making it clear that we >do not support those who work to undermine and inform on the >conservation and social justice communities. We do not wish to >discuss this matter further at this point. a traveler> Act Together 23.05.2007 - 11:46 In response to 'act alone'. The KS Wild staff member who wrote this piece has missed some facts. In November of 2005 when India was first subpoenaed to testify before that Grand Jury (this is before she was indicted), the people you claim who are criticizing KS Wild and have had’ bad blood’ with the informants came forward to support India. Meetings were organized to support India, and KS Wild staff members were invited but choose not to attend. Both Luke and India were offered open hands and open arms by the so called people who have past 'bad blood'. Luke and India contacted the people who had so called 'bad blood' against them on several occasions looking for encouragement and seeking support, because the liberal environmental movement was not openly offering much, they were hiding their heads in the sand as usual, busy drinking and playing Pac Man at the Beau Club. As the federal government continues to come down on the radical environmental movement, the so called 'bad blood' dissolves and true solidarity arises, this is what happened in this case, but when India decided to inform on others and assist the state in putting people in prison for her to receive a lesser sentence, the support ended because she had then become dangerous to all activists, even those working for legal environmental groups like KS Wild. I do agree with the Ks Wild Staff member who wrote this piece, KS Wild is a kick ass legal organization that is vital to standing in between the earth rappers and Wildlands. However, some of you may remember the salvage rider and 318 period when the legal tools in the tool box were gone. In the times to come, as big business, working with the government sees groups (even legal organizations) that obstruct operations of commerce and trade (LOGGING, MINIG, ETC.) as a terrorist activities, groups like KS Wild will exist to lead plant walks in the Cascade Monument, and the legal tools will be limited OR illuminated. In this case, people will make choices to break the law and defend the natural world and critters, some of these people will go to prison, their will be informants, and support and solidarity for those who remain true to their values and did not 'rat' on others will need support. This is not an issues about past bad blood of co-workers, this is an issues of a frightened liberal left, that is angered by the people who address the issues of them supporting informers and have been defensive and in denial of the real issue, but in turn happily enjoyed a spaghetti dinner with known snitches and are willing to defend these people and turn a valid issue of community movement safety, into something it should have never become,- a debate. Throughout history the liberal left has always sold out and informed on the revolution and revolutionaries. We see it time and time again. George- George> Removal of article on PDX IMC 23.05.2007 - 15:01 I removed the article on Portland Indymedia, having discussed it with a few people close to the cases. The article was not removed out of any sympathy for informant activity, but because of the claim that Luke Rudiger was a FBI informant (rather than simply the partner of an informant) which I was unable to confirm. If the author's allegation is substantiated, or if the article is changed for accuracy, I would have no objection to it going back up on Portland IMC. dave n.> respect for others opinions? 23.05.2007 - 21:38 Guess I'll respond to ‘traveler’ regarding my “absurd, anti-critical blanket statement” comments above. He said (traveler is probably male, an arrogance like that is generally somewhat testosterone driven) that “these claims are unsubstantiated by any reality other than that in the authors head” regarding my viewpoints. Traveler also added, “here's hoping for a less loaded, critically astute dialogue”. Didn’t like what I had to say, so discount my comments by saying I must be the only one (insulated in my simple brain) that would have such base opinions? This is a public forum, and by definition, invites response and opinion. I have noticed a few things about large scale shifts in society over my lifetime. Unless a movement finds ways to capture the collective imagination it won’t reach or impact the mainstream, without which no change, however righteous, will ever take hold, much less grow. Encouraging young people to do things that could result in lifetime jail sentences is akin to sending them to war in Iraq, in that they are both useless acts that destroy lives. While it is reprehensible that any of the recent "eco-saboteurs" would get huge jail sentences, remember, the rights of individuals were given to corporations in 1907, and the american legal system has traditionally come down absurdly hard on property damage. Throw the terrorist label into the fray and it is easy to fathom how they are justifying extreme jail sentences. And as far as burning things down for a good cause, what is the point of actions that further marginalize? Millions are nauseated by the 'slumbering masses', yet conversely, the Bush elections and Iraq war well demonstrate how much busy distracted americans are willing to accept. If we want to save a few trees or ice burgs, it’ll take huge social change. The same social change that is needed to bring down the dominant two party stranglehold in D.C. that has led us to become a corporate driven lawyer dominated consumer society headed deeper into fascism everyday. No enduring social change in the human history of this planet has ever sustained without huge public buy-in. Think about it. If one’s work does not aid toward moving the masses, it is merely a band aid that will fall off in the water. Try not to take yourselves so seriously, and while it’ll make you barf, why not try to bridge the gaps with the mainstream? Hell, they sell organics in Walmart now. There is an opening. We have the high ground, why not use it? You think lawsuits and direct action are the only valid pathways to salvation? Global warming is proven all over the world. Hurricanes, fires, droughts and tornadoes in the U.S. has done more for the environmental movement than any activist tactic I’ve observed or participated in over the years. And this, traveler, is indeed critical thought. I feel real sympathy for those who are so smart that they cannot tolerate hearing anything that opposes their own self-aggrandized opinions. There's an old saying: "democrats like to be right. republicans like to win." Get a clue, too many of you sound just like the smart middle ground liberals you disdain so much. Mainstream, not just another dirty word. don't matter? don't matter> do a little research 25.05.2007 - 09:06 Rogue Indy Media should be criticized for allowing this misinformed article to remain posted. PDX Indymedia was right to remove it because it is not accurate. The author of this article is clearly misguided. He, and his friends fueling him in spreading this crap, should be the ones who are ostracized, not Luke and Suzanne. He says that Luke and Suzanne are "widely known life-long informants", and calls this "indisputable." First of all, concerning Luke, it is nothing but disputable! Luke is not involved in this case, is not an informant, is not a defendant, was never arrested, was never on trial. Period. This kind of spreading of rumors is unethical. Clearly the author and his buddies simply were trying to smear Luke because they KNOW that he is not a defendant in this case and they published this anyway. To them this isn't about the integrity of the environmental movement, it is an attempt to personally attack someone who is already suffering greatly, dealing with the upcoming sentencing and incarceration of his partner. Guilty by association sounds like the government’s game. As for Suzanne, calling her a "life-long informant" and a dubious character, etc, is also an unethical attack. This kind of language is similar to the government’s use of the label "terrorist." It is destructive, over-simplified, hurtful language. Adding to the low-blow is that everyone knows she can't defend herself or reply to any of this until after the sentencing. Yes, she made a difficult decision to cooperate with the government. I understand that different people will have different opinions about this, and that some will shun her choice. So be it. So don't talk to her at the fundraiser, but pressuring KS WIld to disallow her presence is over the line. Let’s not forget that during the recent enhancement hearing a lawyer for one of the so-called "non-cooperating" defendants reminded the judge and the public that these other four defendants were also sharing information about "others" with the government. While I am not advocating widening the ridiculous the wedge between the "cooperating" and "non-cooperating" defendants, remember that everyone involved has had to compromise on some level. All of these people are victims of Jake, the only real snitch. He wore the wire. He got paid. He has immunity. This whole situation sucks for everyone! I believe each defendant had a very different and very personal decision to make about when and how to take their pleas based on their own level of risk and access to financial support. To make heroes out of some and bastards out of others is just immature. Everyone should recognize that each person has different circumstances. Some are facing twenty or more counts, some just a few. Some have access to financial resources and top-notch lawyers- others have only court appointed attorneys and few or no financial resources to pay court fees or to tend to responsibilities while in prison. Some have more supportive families. Some have spouses or children to consider. Some have been incarcerated for over a year now already. It’s too easy for people who aren’t facing prison to demand that everyone make the same choice. It is too easy for self-righteous people such as those behind this article to pretend that they would know exactly what they would do if they were threatened with life in prison for something that happened ten years ago. This isn't all about politics. These are human beings. I have compassion for all of the defendants and their families. But I don't think an elite few should be on such a pedestal while some small posse of finger-pointers runs around smearing the others who had to make different choices. In the end, everybody plead out and chose to talk- some more than others and some with different requirements. I truly respect the integrity of the four who held out the longest, but I also know the term “non-cooperating” is not entirely factual and only serves to marginalize some defendants and glorify others. I can only hope that once they can speak for themselves instead of watching other “activists” polarize and deconstruct the movement, they will not be so invested in distinguishing themselves as better than the others. Finally, the author of this article is actually harming the productive environmental activism in this valley by putting KS Wild in the middle of all of this. There are plenty of rational people out there, for every one complainer, who will still support KS Wild even if they don't turn their backs on Luke and Suzanne. I am sorry that KS Wild apologized for "letting" these two people come to their fundraiser. Instead, I would like to see Qotsaisaw and his friends apologize to the rest of us for wasting KS Wild's time and resources for their own personal vendetta. logan> not so difficult 27.05.2007 - 23:08 Happen to love luke and india but.... if your workin for the earth they are compromised, act accordingly.. I actually believe they would concur. blaze> wrong and wrong 28.05.2007 - 10:12 Not only is the information above incorrect in many respsects, but Jonathan Paul did not even know Savoie prior to this case--they were not comrades. He has no ill will toward her if she chooses to go to a fundraiser for a local nonprofit. Giving shit to KS Wild is bizarre as well. Why don't you punish a local kick-ass enviro group in addition to all the other damage being done to the movement, communities, etc. by this case? That is the last thing Jonathan or Daniel would want to see as a result of the Green Scare--to detract from a great organization working hard to keep the forests standing. Further, with sentencing for the noncooperating defendants beginning on June 1st, posts like this do nothing to support those defendants and everything to potentially garner anger from the court and increased prison time as a result. Think before you write and make sure your facts are straight before posting. Lauren Regan, Civil Liberties Defense Center Lauren Regan> Homepage:: http://www.cldc.org Relevance of Original Post 28.05.2007 - 12:43 I can see Lauren's points and how they are important. But many people have supported the main points in the original post, including friends of JP and McGowan. Credit was given to KS Wild and their excellent work, and my letter was written with the intent to remain issue specific, and like many, get an understanding of KS Wild's position. Outside of the inability to substantiate claims of Luke's status in relationship to any federal agency, the information given represents what a wide array of people feel is true, including very close-to-the-source/issue individuals. Furthermore, to retain the efficacy of all activist groups, security culture etc. does need to be updated and maintained, and issues such as this need to be addressed and explored; and even if the current non-cooperating defendants have no position on this and the desire for all groups to remain effective, then addressing this issue AND MOVING ON is very important to all involved. Taking this issue, which is moving more into the past, more as a cautionary tale is where its value lies now: with new fathomed understandings of the relationships between the activist community and the State and how to remain effective, which I'm sure all the defendants would agree to, at least in some degree. Again, we need to take what lesson we can in whatever capacity and move on and let people do their work. D. Qotsaisaw> Removed fromPDX IMC Again 28.05.2007 - 12:44 I have removed the "edited" (badly) post from PIMC again for the following two reasons: 1) The requested changes re: Luke R. were not sufficient (as the poster him/herself admitted in a comment to the post), and; 2) As stated by Ms. Regan above, the timing of this discussion with relation to the sentencing hearings is just plain stupid. It was my decision (in this particular case) not to allow unsubstantiated or slanderous posts to remain on the newswire, nor posts that assist the government in its characterization of folks in the movement as "thuggish" or "gang-like". There are better ways to deal with these situations than on a public forum... I urge you to use them. PIMC Admin Volunteer #69> Do support the defendants by . . . 28.05.2007 - 13:17 I would like to re-iterate Lauren's point that this discussion may fuel the current court proceedings and in solidarity and in an effort to not negatively affect the defendants status, etc. it would be most beneficial to DIFFUSE THIS ISSUE FOR NOW. This is a request by people close to the workings of the case and should be taken seriously. I'm relating it as quickly as I have learned of it. This issue deserves addressing, but not at this sensitive time. There is a clarification to be made that India did not specifically name J.P. and he has no personal enimity towards her; her informing involved specifically other defendants; unfortunately this detail was not disclosed to me earlier than just to-day and I apologize to all involved that that detail was omitted in the research I acquired. I believe that the main issue is the same. Again, I think if we have any broad cohesiveness inbetween our activist communities, then let it be shown in respect to the defendants now. D. Qotsaisaw> take the hint 28.05.2007 - 21:28 Ever heard "a chain is only as strong asit's weakest link"? The proof is in the pudding or in this case the above posts....Wowsers you people are priceless, I doubt you need a fed to unravel your weakness.... student>