On Ashland's "Undesirables"
Vanessa Houk, 19.05.2006 21:36
Recent downtown planning meetings have become opportunities to defame homeless people. I've been searching for "undesirables" and here is what I've found.
Taking donations...
Recent articles in the Daily Tidings have sparked my interest and made me question if I have really been paying attention. Particularly some comments made by James Main, an administrator at Southern Oregon University who said he has grown tired of an "undesirable element" on the plaza during a downtown-planning meeting in April. Matt Frey, owner of Rare Earth has also hinted about an invasion of dregs of society hanging out downtown and "spitting on people and cussing them out." According to Frey, "little old ladies have been accosted and surrounded." So, for several weeks now I have been searching the plaza for undesirables and I have to say that I have come up short handed.
I was still trying to give these men the benefit of the doubt. Maybe my eyes have become as liberal as my heart, so when my seventy something year old parents came for a visit, I asked them if they felt unsafe in downtown Ashland. We all had a good laugh and then they went and spent some "tourist dollars" at Breadboard. So much for the urban legend that undesirables are scaring away old people or affecting tourism.
This fascinates me. I can't help but think that maybe there has been this caste system right under my nose in my lovely little town and I have not noticed it. So I didn't give up. Numerous times now, I have gone into the plaza and watched people. Yesterday I finally decided that maybe I am just missing them, these shady, pan-handling folks. So my five-month-old daughter and I walked down to the plaza and sat for a while. It did dawn on me that maybe I needed to look "undesirable" in order to attract them, but as hard as I tried to get Gracie to look mean, she just fell asleep against my shoulder and judging by the number of people who smiled at us, I don't think we pulled off looking tough and unruly.
As we sat there, I thought I found one. A motorcycle parked near us and a longish haired man got off the bike. As he passed by us, my heart sank a little as I could see he wore a t-shirt that advertised one of the restaurants on the plaza and was just going to work. I kept looking, determined to finally see what others have been talking about. A teenage boy passed by, smoking a cigarette none-the-less. I thought he could surely be an undesirable, until I saw that he noticed the baby and quickly moved his smoke away from her. So much for the teen element being mean.
I saw a few middle aged women with shopping bags, but as hard as I tried to fear them, I just couldn't jumpstart those emotions. The older couple coming out of ABC with drinks was not frightening either. By now I was getting as bored and tired as Grace was, so we got up and headed home.
As we passed the Methodist Church I was thinking about how ironic it is that we are bank poor but wealthy beyond our imaginations. We're raising our family in this town and we've invested in causes that we believe in. Ironically, if classism is an Ashland value, I guess I only needed to look in the mirror to see an undesirable.
At least I figure that I am in good company.
e-mail:: lithiasalt@cheerful.com
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Getting Past "Affluent Beggar" series 20.05.2006 - 10:31 Thanks, for checking out the scene and reporting back. Refreshing perspective after that "Affluent Beggar" series in Tidings and Trib (which I hear made it to FOX). friend> Undesirable in Ashland? 23.05.2006 - 18:49 
Can you spot the undesirables?
Taking donations... It seems appropriate that the freshly remodeled Ashland Springs Hotel - financed with stolen cash, would play host to Ashland's "desirables" and their vision of a freshly remodeled Ashland. A community where parks, playgrounds, plazas and sidewalks remain "hippie-free" and public acceptance is based primarily on the content of one's wallet. pogo> After Kent State 24.05.2006 - 18:47 we undesirables went to Ashland's streets. But, we made overtures to the community. I loudly plead "Join us, juice freaks can have fun at these parties too". The Realtors met and decided it was time for action and SOC thought it might be best if I agreed to counseling as a condition of my continued enrollment. The Shrink said "You're so smart, but you say these crazy things". And, I suppose that's difference between you and us undesirables. David Ayers> Tidings joins in on the harrassment 26.05.2006 - 14:24 How dare the Tidings publish the photos of men who are not wanted for anything on the front page as though they are criminals? One of those men is a close friend of mine. He is totally peaceful and harmless, one of the nicest people I know. This town certainly has it's pretentious head up it's ass. Eat the rich! William Grizzle> I was just sixteen when Charlie Retzlaff 29.05.2006 - 08:11 had a couple of Josephine County's sheriffs steal my car. They weren't happy when Mayor Boe made them give it back. They needed the parts in a hurry. Now Lithia wants to build a skyscraper to shade Ashland's homeless. How many cars did that take? David Ayers> My middle name is irony... 30.05.2006 - 08:44 Just a couple days after posting this, we got a 30 day eviction notice. I haven't had much time to write but I am trying to keep a new blog going. If anyone is interested it is  http://30daysuntilhomeless.blogspot.com/
You'll have to read from the bottom up as I haven't figured out how to put it into "book form" yet. If anyone knows of any affordable housing in Ashland that is available now, please let us know. There are 5 of us and we really want to keep our kids in Ashland schools. Thanks for all of the comments too, you've made me laugh and I appreciate that. Vanessa Houk> e-mail:: lithiasalt@cheerful.com
Irony Continues 31.05.2006 - 08:53 It isn't suprising that the same people posting and whinning about the division of people are part of the people that believe in shunning those who earn a living off of the natural resources, i.e. logging, ranching, etc. It appears OK to condemn and harass people who made a choice to work and earn a wage, yet unacceptable to criticize those who want to get by sitting on the street asking for tax free donations and living on their Oregon Trail Cards. In most circles this attitude would be considered two-faced. Here it seems to be noble........ Now for the life of me I cannot understand where the problem is. Hey, if you move to Portland there are plenty of "shanty towns", of course you have to live the part of town the general population up there decided. Wow, come to think about it, just about everywhere you look the general population just isn't that tolerant of people who don't want to get a real job and present themselves in a "respectable" manner. Student> Student-- Please get an EDUCATION! 31.05.2006 - 09:17 Please re-read my post. It has noting to do with flaming ranchers. If you'd like to go off on an tangent, you probably picked the wrong article. We are working class people. We both have JOBS (more irony here as it is with the local newspapers, wish we earned a living wage but that is another fight for another day). We're both college educated people (SOSC, guess how far an English degree will get you), but unlike Sid DeBoer, we aren't pulling in $600 a day. When life knocks you down a few times, you just might get it. Do you want to live in an Ashland where only the rich can survive? Do you care about diversity? Imagine an Ashland with less music, less poetry, less passion. That is where we are headed. Please pay attention. I know you can see the truth if you just look for it. Vanessa Houk> Surely you jest.... 31.05.2006 - 09:25 This comes as news to you?????? I lived in Ashland for a couple years. It is far and away the single most elitist place I have ever seen. Beats Eugene, PDX, or Seattle by a country mile. "Student" nails it. Unless you fit the mold of an 'Ashlander,' you're dirt. As the Brits say about France: "Lovely place. Shame about the people." Dan G> I shouldn't but... 31.05.2006 - 09:29 I just can't resist....Student, you have to understand the mind set, reality doesn't matter, and if you want things then people should just give them to you. These folks are the same types that thought the Russian Revolution was the greatest thing since sliced bread, then figured out that true communism doesn't exist in the real world, and ended up with a third world country with a first world military, which we all know imploded on itself, only after being the biggest threat to democracy for half a century. Personally, I don't know of folks having half the problems when they pay their bills, are honest, respectful and actually work for a living and live within their means. What happens with these types is: They want things given to them. They don't think others should have what they don't. And foremost they just want that "feel good" idealism, regardless of the facts or reality of the situation. They refuse to accept the guidelines of the society they live in and generally support anarchy, yet are the first to cry for protection and equality when things don't go their way. 90% of these folks are just plain lazy and have the fancy tongue for all the excuses. 10% really need help, sometimes only temporary, sometimes permanent, these types were once institutionalized because they couldn't function in society. Now they actually get penalized by society because of the farse of the other 90%. Chane Sau> The psychiatrist is in... 31.05.2006 - 10:02 Gee thanks Chane Sau, for saving me so much on counseling. I had no idea that my problems all stem from laziness (we're working lazy people I suppose), or mental health issues. If only the rest of society could be exactly like you. Imagine how great that would be... Vanessa Houk> Well now.... 31.05.2006 - 10:13 It appears that an education in real life may be more valuable than a degree from an institution. When the schools want to eliminate arts and keep sports you folks cry, yet you fail to look at the fact that there is little interest in the arts by the majority. Not saying it is good or bad, but we live in a society governed by the will of the majority. Chane Sau obviously understands you folks better than I. You want all the rights of this country, the freedom of speech, the freedom of assembly, the freedom of religion, etc. yet you don't want to accept the wishes of the majority when they don't agree with you. If you make the choice to have a job that can't support your way of life or your desires then either ajust your desires or change your job. This is what you expect loggers, ranchers, and others to do,(hence the only reference to ranchers previously) when they can't find work due to the forests being locked up by people like you. Personally I like the office life, and can afford my desires and way of life. There are places that like the arts, that support your way of life, you just don't want to find them and you don't have to, but we don't have to accept a degredation of our values to accomadate you. The idea that you have to "dumb down" to feel good is the reason our public schools and many of our rural towns have been degraded. Student> Student, maybe you mean degradation? 31.05.2006 - 10:31 Exactly what values are *we* disintegrating ? Family values? Who are "we" anyway? I'm trying to understand what you are trying to say... Vanessa Houk> Well your welcome 31.05.2006 - 10:34 Gee...If you can't afford what you want, and there are other jobs available, and your not lazy then get a second job. You and your other could easily make 60K just on minimum wage. now I doubt that you are making that little now with a college education, if you are then I would say you are a college educated idiot or you are not very good at what you do. You could come work in the woods for $16-24/hr and even get overtime each week. There are jobs for women as well as men in the woods. Or you could move a little north and there are plenty of mills jobs that pay $13-18/hr and give you the chance to work 16+ hours a week overtime. It looks like housing is cheaper up north also and best of all, NO COLLEGE EDUCATION REQUIRED. Our household makes 6 digits with only one high school diploma. Some of us have served as elected officials and we all volunteer each and every month to various organizations. I even have been known to take in a play or two the fair city of Ashland, I have worked for businesses in Ashland and must say the owners weren't looking for handouts. I have kids that managed to go to private colleges and earn merit scolarships to do so. But I guess my lack of understanding on life has kept me from gettingand giving what I want and contributing to the society I live in. I think an education is needed by folks other than Student, but he/her still has a way to go also. If you crap in your pants you should be old enough to change them, not just sit in it and whine. Chane Sau> Values 31.05.2006 - 11:02 The values of learning to provide for yourself, the value of taught to children that you don't depend on others for your wants and desires. The real value of a house that you have fixed up and put time equity into only to have someone move in next door and create a unsightly mess, bring down the real value of your house. The "you" being those who think that the rest of us should have to accomadate those of "you" not willing to do what it takes to get the things that you want without someone having to give it to you. Student> Funny Math... 31.05.2006 - 11:04 I'm going to pretend that I make $7.50 an hour and I can find a job in Ashland that will give me a 40 hour work week and on top of that, just for fun, I'll add my husband into the mix and we'll give him the same salary/hours. 60K a year, you say? Ummmm, no. Before taxes and insurance let's try $28,xxx. Let's pretend that a working family can also find two 40 hr a week jobs that do not overlap so that they can maybe have one parent home with the children? Outlandish thought, I know. If one of their jobs provides health insurance (being the dreamer that I am, I like to think health care might be accessable), you can roughly estimate $300 a month going to that. One problem though, it is improbable that someone with a degree can even get a menial job-- they are "overqualified", so this entire fantasy becomes just that. Interesting math, though. Vanessa Houk> Ashland 31.05.2006 - 11:35 Editor and staff----------For a far better picture of Ashland Downtown, from an outsider point of view, please read 5-27-06 Saturdays letters to the editor in the Ashland Daily Tidings. http://www.dailytidings.com/
There has been an effort to help curb the incivility for years in the Plaza area and I will admit there is very much in evidence a little progress. These public areas in Ashland are for everybody’s enjoyment not just those who can insult others with their many times illegal and at the very least rude aggressive behavior. This is and never was an issue of looks, fashion, style or constitutionality. To infer that is the case is almost as insulting as some of the behavior and vandalism we have encountered downtown that you are apparently unaware. It is an issue of civil behavior in public areas.Merchants are downtown 24/7/365 and certainly observing a lot more than somebody casually strolling through to do a quick editorial. Well just maybe, as was your writers observed,there has been more progress than realized in trying to help all people get along by respecting the rights and quiet enjoyment of others. Progress is seldom universally embraced. Thanks for your time and consideration Matt Frey matt frey> Amazing what a degree doesn't get you 31.05.2006 - 20:35 Well Venessa, maybe you should read "and" do the math, the post said if you aren't lazy you could get a second job (2) and at minimum wage that would equate to $15/hr or 16 hr at $7.50, still with me? Then your spouse or partner could do the same so the formula would look like this: (2 x 7.5)+(2 x 7.5)= 30 x 40 =1200 x 52 (weeks in a year) = 62400. I know that higher math might be a challenge even for some one with your education. Now if you go just up the freeway and get a job with the native americans you can even have full benefits. And as a matter of fact there are people flippin burgers at the local McD's with 4 year degrees, Check outside the bun in Grants Pass, same thing. But if you want to cop out to the fact that you are "over qualified" suit yourself. After all making excuses is what gets most people in trouble with life to start with, which I believe from reading the previous posts was part of the issue raised. The previous post also make remarks to the effect of what some of the problems with vandalism, etc. that goes along with "undesireables". People with respect also have self-respect and strive to be the best they can, no excuses. People with no self-respect also don't respect others or property of others, hence the reason they are generally undesireable, but since I don't have that degree I obviously must have missed something. By the way insurance for a family of 7 runs about $1400 per month and I somehow manage to provide for my family without the degree, maybe you should have gotten a BS istead of an BA, I hear you learn alittle more about reality then feelings. Chane Sau> in addition.... 31.05.2006 - 20:47 to the lack of math skills, you might consider the wants and desires vs. reality. If you are too busy makin excuses to get a different job or be good enough to move up the ladder, then maybe you should locate to an area that has a lower cost of living. If I had your attitude, I'd walk into the local BMW show room and demand that they make their cars available to me regarless of what I earn because I want to be like those who actually can afford to drive one. But then reality strikes and a person realizes that they can only afford a civic and they must adjust their life style to fit their income, even if they really want something more, they can't have what they don't earn. Chane Sau> A wealthy man's heart is a ghetto... 31.05.2006 - 21:39 a poor man's heart is a kingdom... Is it more important to feel that your life matters or is to keep up appearances? Is minimum-wage slavery really a key to salvation or might it cheat the individual of their own potential? The dynamics are not difficult to understand. What's good for others is good for all of us. As a community we have the opportunity to reject the capitalists "US vs. "THEM" competitive model and invest in real social capital. By recoginizing the value in each person we enrich everyone. "A scoundrel's worst fear is a society without money: for in such a society he would only get the respect he deserves." - Ben Franklin Pogo> Partial Agreement 01.06.2006 - 16:24 Well Pogo, I do agree with you in part, what is good for one person is good for the other. Since I have earned all that I have, I believe that others should also earn that which they desire. I don't expect to have someone pay my way and I don't think I should be expected to pay someone else's way, if I choose to that is a different matter. This is not a socialist country, and since socialism doesn't work well for other countries then I fail to understand why you would want to inflict that here. On the surface it is a wonderful idea, but in reality it is a disaster to the economy and free market values that have made this country great. The best solution is to live within your means, your means being determined by your ability, your desire, and your ambition. There is no limits, only those imposed on yourself. Chane Sau> Socialism 01.06.2006 - 16:56 Who says socialism doesn't work well in other countries? Tell that to Western Europe and Canada, which are capitalistic and socialist at the same time. When all is said and done in just a few years, the US will be on it's knees before the socialist countries, because we will be poor and they will be rich. William Grizzle> Dear Mr. Grizzle 01.06.2006 - 22:09 Maybe you should actually visit the Europian socialist countries, even our friends to the north. In Canada the crown owns most of the ground and leases the timber rights out, dictates the cut based on it's needs with little regard to sustainablity, the only reason they haven't run out of wood is the shear vastness of the supply not good forestry. Health care is provided by the government, wonderful idea, just go and try to get treatment in a timely manner, and as for the quality well you go right ahead. How about the quality of living? You are in a fog of idealism and not reality of the system in operation. Look at the economies of the socialist countries they are fragile and very inefficient, not to mention non productive. Let's look at immigration, which one of you are going to migrate to France? Oh that's right the wonderful socialists shut off their borders and booted a bunch out. How does that fit your perfect world? I'm beginning to wonder if any of you folks actually get out of your little bubble or if you just sit and dream? Chane Sau> Dear Mr Screenname 02.06.2006 - 04:00 Duh! I have been to Canada, and I have many friends who are citizens of that great land. I'll get back to you on this, but I have to go to work right now. Yes, I live and work in Ashland. I clean the most important toilets in town. William Grizzle> One job loss away from poverty 02.06.2006 - 10:11 "It is easier to be impatient then to live with sadness. Finding fault with the homeless may divert us from the thought of what we might have done, or what the people we elect to office should have done to have prevented such a disaster. It may also be a way of distancing ourselves, "She's not like us, this nightmare could never happen to us or to our children. There must be something wrong with her, some flaw we do not share. In this way perhaps, we find some consolation for the grief we feel and some assurance that our own lives are secure." I believe that our unwillingness to forgo toughness and submit to our own instinct for compassion speaks ill of democracy. It betrays the best things America should stand for. "State terrorism as a social welfare policy...has not yet achieved acceptance in our social order, but it may no longer be regarded as beyond imagination." --- The above quotes are from a book called Rachel and her Children by Jonathan Kozol I especially want to reiterate the idea that most of us will try and justify dispossesion by assuring ourselves of how far away we are from becoming "like them". After all our friend on this board makes a six figure salary with just a high school education. If he can be so successful, it must be laziness or bad choices that create such problems in other people's lives. What he fails to understand though is that many low income people lack transportation to get to two jobs (our public transportation could use improvment and not more cuts as we are currently seeing). He also does not seem to see that even if a family could find two 40 hour a week jobs (in other words, as he so kindly pointed out, each parent work 80 hours a week) in order to be able to live comfortably in the Valley, what becomes of their children? What becomes of a marriage, an entire structure of a family if they are put into a postion where they must accept low wages in order to survive. Is this "family values"? I think we both agree that the current system isn't working. We just don't seem to agree on how it is broken or where to go from here. Vanessa Houk> Mom's got a little house 02.06.2006 - 11:56 She graduated from SOC and went on to teach business at Rogue. She isn't qualified to teach, nor was she ever. She does sign a lot of grant proposals but that's related to theft instead of business. When you are robbing a non profit "Perfessur" looks good on the application. The street version of undesirable isn't much good to any of us. The mom version is good for some of us. Mom and her friends support a meager lifestyle on your money. But, she'd be homeless if SOC hadn't trained her to steal. David Ayers> Call me an Eskimo 02.06.2006 - 17:45 I've been thinking about what Matt Frey said about it being insulting to infer that this whole debate stems from judging people based on how much money they make (or don't make). If you call me a liar, I am bound to feel insulted because I know I have been guilty of lying at times (I'm human afterall), but call me an eskimo and I'm likely to laugh and think you are sort of funny for thinking that. I am confident that I am not an eskimo. I urge Mr. Frey to search his heart for the truth. Vanessa Houk> Still missing the point 02.06.2006 - 23:49 Vanessa and others are still missing the point. It is not a "right" to have what you want, you have the right to pursue happiness (what you want). The lack of transportation is another excuse, nothing more. I also don't think that both parents working 80 hours is a good thing for the children or the parents, the point is that you should live within your means and not expect others to provide for you. If you want the 300K home then earn it. If you want to stay at home with your kids then do so, but don't whine that you can't afford to be like the Jones, or that your life style that you chose doesn't fit in with what the majority around you desires. You can adapt or move to where you do fit in with the lifestyle that you chose. I "pratice what I preach" and know for a fact that you have to make sacrifices for the things you want, also I and my kids have done without because the wants were out of our means, I don't expect anyone to give things to me, a matter of pride and principal, not politics. As for the grants and "free" money from non-profits, reap that which is available, but again don't whine if you don't get it. By the way, I haven't heard of anyone wanting to go to the great Socialist Countries. I did some more checking, there are several Canadian Doctors that have come to the area, visit with them and see why, they have some interesting stories and one had some advice, check it out and enjoy. Chane Sau> We can't afford for the Jonses 03.06.2006 - 08:22 to live like the Jonses. We have solved that problem in the case of Lay, and Shilling, but there's work yet to be done. Point me out a three hundred thousand dollar home in Grants Pass and I can tell you who the owner robbed to get it. He robbed you. The surgeon who butchered me on a lie. The judge who violated my civil rights. The District attorney who murdered my family for your votes. Living up on the hills, to better piss on the peasants. I'm on the river, which is the same situation. Surrounded by liars and thieves who'd kill you for your fillings. But, not Mom. Sure, she's a thief too, but she never really made the big time. Still, she has stolen millions from you just for a pat on the head from some pirates. Or, Pubs. Same difference. Most of the wealthy continue to make money the old fashioned way. They can't remember when The Terror was a good thing. Well, just so it still is. David Ayers> Undesirables, Socialism and Stuff 04.06.2006 - 00:33 Ashland strikes me as being similar to two twons in my neck of the woods: Niagara-On-the-Lake and Stratford, Ontario. These towns are pretty as postcards and home to major live theatres. Correct me if I am mistaken, but Ashland might also suffer from a similar economic dilemma. Namely, tourist-fueled prices that rival larger cities, expensive real estate and a local economy that is heavily weighted with the sort of low-paying service jobs that make living a bit precarious for those who serve the coffee and sell the T-shirts. Big-city prices and small-town job opportunities are a bad combination. If a busker soliciting spare change is the worst sort of undesirable on your streets, Ashland is doing well. Similar-sized towns have to deal with youth gangs and vacant store fronts. I live in Toronto, the "big city" of Canada. However, Toronto operates more like a series of small towns rather than a single entity. The same sorts of concerns crop up in various neighbourhoods as I am reading here. Regarding the 'socialism' concepts others have raised, all I can add is that socialistic policies in Canada are pretty tame. Both the Canadian welfare state and the associated tax burdon lie somewhere between the level of a progressive US state and a west European nation. The medicare system is usually held up as an example, but physicians and most hospitals are not actually employed or operated by the government. The original model was one of "unversal insurance" rather than a state-operated system as you'd see in a country such as France. Suffice it to say, the system has problems, largely stemming from underfunding coupled with a stubborn resistance to privatizing some areas of healthcare such as MRI clinics. It's an ongoing debate. Objective measures such life expectancy and the overall health of the populace suggest that the system essentially works for most people, but waiting times and other issues are real. Healthcare is not like other industries, in that consumption is largely involuntary -- nobody actually *wants* surgery. The capping of fees has also encouraged some Canadian physicians to emigrate to the USA, where they can command higher compensation. This is a problem unique to Canada, in that the only first-world nation without a universal healthcare system is right across the border. WM Johnston> That "Will Work For Food" sign is the mark 04.06.2006 - 08:26 of America's best and brightest. While we all know it really means "Will beg for liquor" remember that he might have been sober before you sent him off to kill babies. Not likely, but a possibility. There's lots more where he came from. David Ayers> Lost cause.. 04.06.2006 - 18:12 David you are the type of person that will always keep those that listen to you from getting anywhere in life. There are plenty of people including myself that live in houses worth $250K and more. We did not lie, steal or cheat to get where we are. It's called hard work and obviously you seem offended by the notion of it. People like you and a few others on this posting seem to think that if you have it, you stole it, if you don't have it you should be given it. Get off you're sorry butt and go earn what you want. Learn to live within your means and quit being such a self-pitty filled, excuse filled, whinner, expecting everyone to jump on the "poor are rightous, the rich are crooks" band wagon. You and people like you are the propagation of the problem, definitely not the solution. Chane Sau> Mr Chabe 04.06.2006 - 22:20 kk karen l> You are correct 05.06.2006 - 03:52 "Correct me if I am mistaken, but Ashland might also suffer from a similar economic dilemma. Namely, tourist-fueled prices that rival larger cities, expensive real estate and a local economy that is heavily weighted with the sort of low-paying service jobs that make living a bit precarious for those who serve the coffee and sell the T-shirts. Big-city prices and small-town job opportunities are a bad combination." That's it in a nutshell. The jobs to match the housing prices simply are not here. I've lived in several states and cities, and nowhere else have I found employers who are as cheap as they are here. They know that if you quit due to low wages, there are plenty of other people who will be happy to replace you. Some of Mr Screenname's posts display classism. If you can't afford to live here, move to Roseburg, he says. Get your low-class ass out of town. I think that judging a person's value on the amount of money they make is quite bogus, but the Fox News mentality displayed by more and more people in our community will never see that. William Grizzle> WHAT LIST ARE YOU ON 05.06.2006 - 04:04 Undesirable and the watch list are we back in the KKK days. I guess undesiables are the money chancing the tourist money away. It couldn't be the prices downtown. It scared me away. I am not lazy or dumb but its hard to make a living to when the Dollar Tree gives you 10 houts a week. I could try to get a few more jobs. Jobs in Ashland 9 dollars an hout would be the tops and with a family that puts you on the poverty list. I am not sure who gets that Ashland living wage. Finding a place to rent has always been a nigtmare, first, last and a deposit and there are 30 other people wanting it too. Affordable living I have heard that for a long time must be those new condo's in town. Who employed in Ashland could afford to buy a 500,000 house maybe thats on a list too. The tidings doesn't put names in the police report but now the post pictures. Are these watch lis guys sexual preditors, murders or even felons. What do I do if I see one? Somebody went alittle to far this time. The focus is on downtown people but the shop n cart folks have panhandled with their signs for years,tossing garbage and getting drunk. I raised my kids here and this isn't the way they were taught life. What power and wealth is behide all this new way of governing the people in it. My family has been here since 1905 it was the place to raise a family. Its not our town anymore so we headed uo north got jobs in the mills have benefits again. We have a beautiful house that we can afford. We feel safe again the town is looking out for us. Oh and Mr Chane don't make it impossible for your children to be as successful as because some of us can't play the game. kAREN L> Is it a plot? 05.06.2006 - 05:26 The capture of Mexicali greatly excited California radicals and at a meeting in Los Angeles on February 5, Jack London, the writer, circulated a manifesto proclaiming: We socialists, anarchists, hoboes, chicken thieves, outlaws and undesirable citizens of the U.S. are with you heart and soul. You will notice that we are not respectable. Neither are you. No revolutionary can possibly be respectable in these days of the reign of property...I for one wish there were more outlaws of the sort that formed the gallant band that took Mexicali. David Ayers> No suprises here!! 05.06.2006 - 11:52 Folks, maybe most of you live in the fantasy of "I want it, so you will give it to me". A few of the points that have been brought up are;1) There are people in this town that the general population think are either a threat or a deterance to the betterment of the town. This is true and can be proven in cities across the world. 2) This country wasn't founded on the premise that if you want it, someone should give it to you. That is why we have the advancements in every field of life, and why those who want more come here and earn it. 3) You must live within your means and one option is to move to where you may be able to get what you want with what you have or earn. Show me people that have gotten what they wanted by sitting in the gutter and whinning. 4) Capitalism and freedom are what founded this county "and" made it the super power that it is....Why do some of you continue to ignore the facts and insist on getting the best of both worlds, with out the consequences of the negatives? There has never been a utopia where everything and everyone is in harmony and fulfilled, nice idea, but totally unrealistic, even mother-nature doesn't practice this. So if you really want to solve a particular problem or fix a situation then consider all the factors and face the reality of the surroundings. Just like the poster from Canada points out, there is a system in place and a real problem is having the most powerful country in the world next door is that it attracts those who want more. This country is great and powerful, which protects the freedoms used on this site. You don't have to embrace it, but without it you may have your healthcare but how long do you think you would have your freedoms? How long do you think that Canada and Mexico would last if we weren't their neighbors? Reality! Chane Sau> Pan, Tierra, Y Libertad 05.06.2006 - 12:57 Things just seem to flow to us. We're knowledgeable in our field. We type and crossmatch the junk in your yard sale and pick the cherries. You can't imagine the value of some of those cherries. We traded our way to a pit of Pubs on the shores of The Rogue (Just for a steelhead hole and a sheltered anchorage). All I ever asked for was that Social Security care for my children when complications of being a downwinder destoyed my organs. A fat lady sheriff asked "Do you want to go the hard way nigger?". I thanked Mr. Reagan for his time and the kids went to poverty to await their symptoms. I got rich in multiple organ failure while the doctors and lawyers and judges of Grants Pass made their way in this life violating my civil rights and murdering my wives and children for what they could grub out of my Blue Cross Plan and your pockets. This week the legislature meets in "True Congres" to assure that I'm gong to stay rich, and pass that on to the kids. But all I offer my children is the gun I carry. I see the same undesirables on the corner you do. I got off that corner when you tried to chain me to it. But, not all of us can. If you were born smart and lucky good, but don't fault those who might not have been. This is a society built for the lucky, by the lucky. We made every cent the old fashioned way. We ate what we raised, and I caught out of the back yard, or gathered from the woods. The lucky went after us like dingos. Everywhere I step, I'm walking the streets of Paris and waiting for the call. David Ayers> And the price of rice in China is??? 05.06.2006 - 19:44 So far Mr. Ayers, you have babbled about alot that isn't and some that has a streak of relevance, but only a streak. The bottom line is there some luck in the world, but mostly it's people who make good decisions most of the time and put forth effort in all that they do, that get the fruits of life. Some of the lazy ones actually get ahead by luck. You sound like the typical walk around with a chip on your shoulder type, that would definitely interfer with success and make it difficult to get even a relevant point across, but somehow I don't think you care if anyone even listens. The opportunities are all around for those who don't put stipulations on something they don't even have, rather than complain about what life gives you, try getting it for yourself and adapt to your environment, it works in nature and it works in our society. What doesn't work in the long term is welfare and whinning. Chane Sau> I got it for myself 05.06.2006 - 22:02 and bigger than you'll ever dream of. While I was at it, half of the Pub whores in this valley filled their pockets out of mine, and used crooked DAs and Judges to get away with it. Half the desirables I'd shoot as that, and the other half as deserters. David Ayers> Not quite 06.06.2006 - 13:00 You may have had it, but you still don't get it. What you are is what you portray yourself to others as, and what you portray yourself as here is a whinny little brat, who obviously doesn't close the loop well enough to keep what you had. (Just a look in from the outside) Chane Sau> My middle schooler won't even talk like that. 06.06.2006 - 16:53 I wish we could all get past the silly name calling and discuss this as rational adults, Chane Sau. We had an interesting discussion going. I'm sorry it is turning into something else. Vanessa Houk> All for productive conversation 08.06.2006 - 11:42 Vanessa, I'm all for a productive conversation and possible workable solutions, but so far the workable solutions and reality checks have been lost, in particular with apparent burnouts.(I know - name calling)But on the subject at hand, what I see is the desire to be given something, not because you have earned it, but because you feel you are entitled to it. I don't believe that a person is entitled to anything they don't earn. What I see is reasons, i.e. excuses, for not making the sacrifices required to earn what you want. Granted there is real conflict for you and others who want the ideal lifestyle of being at home with the kids and only having one parent working full time, etc., but in the society that you live in and in particular the area you have chose to live in, your desires and reality are in conflict. This is America and apparently still better than our neighbors, since they keep coming in by the thousands. You have the choice to live where you want, but the catch is you have to be able to support yourself. There are areas that have a much cheaper cost of living and still have a decent quality of life, there are also areas that are havens for welfare rats who don't want to work and just exist, these are called intercity housing developments. People often confuse the idea of "being forced", with the actual result of their "choices". Chane Sau> sidelined.. 08.06.2006 - 21:39 Mr. Grizzle I do appologize for not clarifying something you posted previously, there is no classism meant in any of my posts, I do believe that there is classism, but it exists primarily due to the fact that people peak out at certain levels. Unfortunately, I also believe that most of the people peak due to a lack of ambition rather than any physical or social road block. In fact most of the ones protecting the "undesireables" are in fact enabling them not helping them. With the exception of a very small percentage, who truely need assistance, most of the low lifes or undersireables or what ever you want to call them are the result of their own decisions and nothing more or less. Think about it, how many times have you woke up in the morning thinking to yourself "self it sure would be nice to just skip out on responsibility and let life go on by". Those who act on the thought destine themselves to less than they are capable of. Chane Sau> Spin 09.06.2006 - 02:29 The police have been working overtime in the spin department. 1st there was the undesirables and then the invention of the watch list. The gave us crime stats this week Numbers have shown a decline in some area's and now they are credited in recovering of those. lonely benches. Now who's silly little game was that. We got here a little mayberry here. kAREN l> Try the other foot 09.06.2006 - 22:55 Hey karen why don't you take a trip to NYC and hang around central park for the evening. Many of those people would say that they have every right to be there and it's not their problem that people don't think they should be there or don't feel safe being there. Pretty much the same ideas that you and others regergitate. Some how I don't think that the general population of the RV wants their own central park. Now the police have the stats that show they are accomplishing a set goal and you accuse them of playing games. If they don't do their job your kind are the first to criticize them for "eating doughnuts" instead of getting out and doing their job, which way do you want it? As for the stats, well there was never a problem when the numbers get manipulated in your favor, thats what numbers are for. Chane Sau> Things you don't know 10.06.2006 - 10:01 Mr. Chane 1st of all I don't believe you live in Ashland. With all your views and beliefs it wouldn't seem like you would have your children in a community of lazy, undesirable's and expecting a handout freeloaders. I doubt you buy them clothes downtown and have picnic's in the park surrounding by half naked long haired boys. Do you know that there are alot of things you don't hear about? What exaclty happened to waylon? Do you know there are deaths not reported? Also instead of doughnuts they do chinese. Public Safety is protection they let me down? karen L> Well you are partly right 10.06.2006 - 11:40 No Karen I don't currently live in Ashland but I have and I very much enjoyed the culture, culture being different than panhandlers. I have spent many a day in Lithia park and attended many plays. I have lived and worked in and around the surrounding area, including up on the Dead Indian. I no longer live there for the same reasons being discussed on here. I chose my current residence because I could afford to live here for much less than in Ashland, I continued to live here because I got a job that had benefits I wanted for my family. You see, rather than whine I obtained what I wanted and now I can live anywhere I want and am fairly secure in both finance and life. A short drive gives my family the chance to see liberal culture and a short drive allows them to see less liberal more realistic culture, as they are headed off to higher education they do and will continue to have a basis for making informed decisions and know how to weed out the rhetoric and BS. I don't have any preconceived notions of who should do what, but I do have a notion that excuses are easier than effort, with a much low rate of return. If you wonder why the voting and general social ideas are gradually drifting back to the right, it's because as the die-hard liberals from the 60's fade away the majority is seeing that long term "free love, free spirit, free loading, free anything" has a much higher price than most of us are willing to pay. Chane Sau> Well you are partly right 10.06.2006 - 11:41 No Karen I don't currently live in Ashland but I have and I very much enjoyed the culture, culture being different than panhandlers. I have spent many a day in Lithia park and attended many plays. I have lived and worked in and around the surrounding area, including up on the Dead Indian. I no longer live there for the same reasons being discussed on here. I chose my current residence because I could afford to live here for much less than in Ashland, I continued to live here because I got a job that had benefits I wanted for my family. You see, rather than whine I obtained what I wanted and now I can live anywhere I want and am fairly secure in both finance and life. A short drive gives my family the chance to see liberal culture and a short drive allows them to see less liberal more realistic culture, as they are headed off to higher education they do and will continue to have a basis for making informed decisions and know how to weed out the rhetoric and BS. I don't have any preconceived notions of who should do what, but I do have a notion that excuses are easier than effort, with a much low rate of return. If you wonder why the voting and general social ideas are gradually drifting back to the right, it's because as the die-hard liberals from the 60's fade away the majority is seeing that long term "free love, free spirit, free loading, free anything" has a much higher price than most of us are willing to pay. Chane Sau> our town 10.06.2006 - 20:36 Ok you agreed ashland isn't affordable. No body was whining before they asked about affordable housing and yes I am whining about how it is now. As I mentioned before my family came in 1905 they had a very large ranch on the Indian my father in law was born on The Indian cause with the snowstorm there buggy couldn't make it to town. The only problems back then were certain cattle rustlers. Another relation lived in town and had a dairy. He wanted good things for the community so he donated alot of land to the city which is now Lithia Park. He gave the town a fountain which has been famous for Ashland, I've heard Lately the city says its broken down and there not sure what there going to do with it.It be ashame it they can't repair it. Doesn't historical cover it. Then he gave the college 40 acres.So as you see Ashland was our home. We still have a plot at the Cemetary by safeway where our elders have been put to rest. The baby that survived the snow is now 82 and he came with us when we had to move. , We have found what was important to us and truthfully I don't miss Ashland one bit. But one thing left soon is my daughter wedding of course in Ashland. So leaving home was hard because our history of everything important in our life happened thewre.Now we have the hoods canal and thw olympic's surrounding us. Log trucks roll thru town, trains run thru town, very little tourist, fishing. In town there is one building that meals are served' a food bank, a shelter , and clothing.I have never seen anybody with s sign. There buildins houses from 150 to 400 here so its possible for family to live here. No city surcharges. I am just resentful about Ashland changing and there public safety. KAREN L> The costs 11.06.2006 - 12:10 Have you ever considered the costs of "Culture"? The feel good way of life that has been promoted in the area since the late 70's and early 80's has a hidden cost. That is the "undesireables" and other lower income folks feel very welcome and want to stay, but they don't have the income to support the infrastructure and services that the rest want, then you have the public servants who are directed to take a soft touch on the little problems, which then spreads to the not so little problems. One of the ways to get by this problem is to promote high end housing and society, that will pay the way. It is a cycle that has been repeated around the world, folks here just have a tendency to try and reinvent the wheel instead of using the common sense that god gave them. Chane Sau> |