Shots add tension to timber sale protest

Susan Palmer - The Register Guard, 18.09.2005 13:44

STEN TIMBER SALE - It was a surreal day in the woods, what with the harpist tree sitter playing gentle music from 140 feet up in the canopy, and the grumpy tree sitter over the next ridge yelling curses down on chain saw-wielding loggers, and police officers detaining a videographer who got too close to the action.

You had to strain to hear harp music, but it was lovely, the faint sounds of "Greensleeves" wafting from the high canopy of a tree more than 5 feet in diameter. Mostly the chain saws drowned it out.

A protester who would only give her name as Healing Tree said she was there despite reports that people are taking potshots at activists trying to stop logging in old growth stands in the Willamette National Forest east of McKenzie Bridge.

Camped near the crown of a Douglas fir a woman plays her harp while protesting

"I'm good around people that are violent, at de-escalating conflicts and bringing some healing energy to the forest," she said over a walkie-talkie, during a break in strumming her small harp. A 38-year-old Eugene resident who owns her own online business, she also sang a few verses of Simon and Garfunkel's "The Sound of Silence."

Closer to the loggers, the other tree sitter, who declined to give any name, cursed especially loud when a tree fell close to him. He beat regularly on a plastic bucket.

"You want some sound bites?" he yelled before letting loose with an expletive directed at the Forest Service.

For the past five weeks, a small group of activists who call themselves the Guardians of the McKenzie Watershed have been supporting two or three tree sitters in a grove about 15 miles east of McKenzie Bridge. The grove includes trees of various ages - towering firs hundreds of years old and younger trees less than a foot in diameter. In places where the sun peeks through the canopy, ferns and rhododendrons hug the forest floor.

Trees marked with orange spray paint will be preserved. Everything else will be cut.

Activists say that on Aug. 28, someone with a .45 pistol fired into the trees near them, and that on Saturday, someone with a hunting bow shot two arrows, one that pierced a water jug and knocked it down, and one that grazed a tree sitter's hand.

The Lane County Sheriff's Office is investigating the latter incident, but deputies say their inquiry is hampered because no one making the complaints has been willing to give their name.

On Wednesday, activists who said they were anxious over their safety left the trees, and law enforcement officers from the Willamette National Forest took down two of their tree-sitting platforms, which are considered illegal structures.

Thursday, county and forest service officers were on hand once again over concerns that more activists on the ground might hamper the logging.

They detained one man, Josh Schlossberg, citing him for interfering with agricultural operations.

Schlossberg, who said he is a videographer for the Cascadia Forest Defenders, said he was filming activities around the activists because he was worried about their safety.

"I just want to document that everybody's playing fair," he said.

Schlossberg was handcuffed briefly, then released after giving his name. Willamette National Forest officer Don Galbraith confiscated Schlossberg's videotape as evidence, but told him he would be able to get it back eventually.

Galbraith said that, while the Sten timber sale area was not closed to the public, the immediate area around the loggers was closed as a matter of safety.
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Officers had no intention of trying to remove the tree sitters, he said.

They may not have to. The shooting incidents may have scared off activists. The tree sitter whose hand was grazed by the arrow came down from his perch and others are worried about their safety, said Shane Feinstein, who is coordinating the protest.

"As long as people are willing to be out there, we will definitely continue to support them," she said.

The logging is taking place in an area that succumbed to a forest fire about 150 years ago. The older trees survived and younger trees have sprung up among them, said Josh Laughlin, executive director of Cascadia Wildlands Project, an environmental group that encourages logging in younger stands of replanted forests that have become like tree farms.

Laughlin's group is not an active part of the protest, but it does oppose logging on what he calls Oregon's legacy forests - complex stands of varying ages like the trees in the Sten sale. Those forests provide habitat to a variety of species and recreational opportunities for thousands of people.

"They should be set aside for generations to come," he said.

Willamette National Forest Service officials say they are logging the site selectively to mimic the effects of forest fire in an effort to reduce the risk of a larger catastrophic fire.

e-mail:: action(at)cascadiarising.org
Homepage:: http://www.registerguard.com/news/2005/09/16/d1.cr.treesitters.0916.p1.php?section=cityregion

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Red Guard 18.09.2005 - 17:06 is mainstream media isn't it? Where are the thought police? Anybody who has any history in Oregon or for that matter rural America knows that every year at this time people "sight in" rifles for the approaching hunt. Did anybody wonder if maybe that might be what the alledged shooting was all about. Tree sitters are worth verbal pot shots...nothing more. Curious> Strange.. 19.09.2005 - 16:44 Interesting how the protestors could tell it was a .45 cal handgun even though nobody was hit... I have a fairly good knowlege of guns and doubt that I could tell the caliber from a distance... While I wouldn't condone wasting a good cartrige on any of the protestors, I think it's safe to say that if someone really wanted to shoot them there would be a body to retreive the bullet from..... Not the way things should go, but there seems to be fools on both sides who think that going to the extreme is the way to get your point across... no pun intended. Chane Sau> Guns and Compassion 20.09.2005 - 07:59 Chain Sau, If you can't tell cartridge size by the sound, you don't much about guns. Chain Sau: "While I wouldn't condone wasting a good cartrige on any of the protestors, I think it's safe to say that if someone really wanted to shoot them there would be a body to retreive the bullet from." There's a line to be crossed here. From rhetoric over to the side of dismissing and passively condoning acts of intimidation. You're playing with this line. Are you sure you want to do that? Silent Type> Its a short step 20.09.2005 - 09:33 Its a short step from pushing salmon and owls into extinction, forever, to killing humans who try to stand up for the ancient forests. Some people just don't respect life. Joan Norman's Friend> Keeping Osama Company 20.09.2005 - 12:01 Dear Pro-Logging Supporters, If someone is murdered at the Sten, it's not going to be b/c a lone shooter took action. It's going to be b/c of a passive condonement by your community. I believe the shooters at the Sten are testing the waters. They take a few shots and then step back to see what the police response is, what their community's response is. Tell them they've crossed a line. They're shooting at Americans. Tell them, if they continue to threaten American life, they will be keeping Osama company. I realize it's frustrating dealing with protesters, but they are Americans. In some ways, they're ultra-American. And once you start playing with that line, once you start threatening Americans, you've joined the other side. You've entered the world of madness. Tell these shooters they do not have your blessing. Do not be a silent witness. I believe they will listen. Silent Type> Listen... 20.09.2005 - 19:32 "You're either with us, or you're against us." George W. Bush> Sure, Vern 20.09.2005 - 20:19 "If you can't tell cartridge size by the sound, you don't much about guns." You have got to be kidding me. Moon Muffin> Who's kidding who? 21.09.2005 - 06:45 Let's talk about condoning violence... First of all what about the mill workers that have been seriously hurt because of spikes, both ceramic and metal put into trees...Haven't heard to much criticism from the anti-logging side on this. What about the protestors that go out into the timber sale as cutters are working and because the cutters don't want to hurt anyone make foolish efforts to change the direction of a falling tree to avoid a protestor who runs out into the direction of the falling tree, putting the faller into harms way. How about digging out roads in the dark so that unsuspecting people take evasive action and end up off the road (fortunately unhurt). How about destruction of mills and equipment often times with no idea if someone is actually in the building or if the operator will be able to safely shut the equipment down with out getting anyone hurt. The one difference that is obvious, and not in a condoning manner, is that a bullet is selective and can be controlled. As for telling the difference in cartrige size, I will gladly put up $100 to you experts and I will provide 10 different guns, all you have to do is get 8 right to claim the cash.... give me a break you folks aren't fools, you're self absorbed idiots......As long as the violence and destruction come in the name of saving a dying tree then all is well. There is a fine line in this whole idealism...I'd say I'm along way from crossing it... So silent type the answer is pretty clear.....Absoulutely..... Chane Sau> PS Silent Type 21.09.2005 - 07:02 The last time I checked many of the same folks up in the trees are the ones that either belong to or support groups or have ties to groups that the FBI lists as terrorist... ultra-americans..... Get real, these people put real Americans out of work and most leach off of the Americans that protect the very freedom that they abuse...the protestors criticize and put down police, LEO's, and our military until they suddenly need them.... Get behind America all the time or get off your soap box.....With Love Chane Chane Sau> All right, Chane 21.09.2005 - 18:42 Tell us when and where a spike placed by an environmentalist ever hurt anyone at a mill? The tactic was invented by millworkers themselves to punish scabs, and I've never heard of a spike placed by an environmentalist causing any harm. So tell us, when and where? Similarly, tell us where you get your information ("when you last checked") about logging protesters being an FBI lists. As if that meant anything anyway, with the FBI and CIA assassinating trade unionists, democratic presidents and anyone else who stands in the way of US corporate/political profiteering. You spewing bullshit Chane, and you know it. I can't believe you have the nerve to represent these stupid and atrocious statements as an actual person's beliefs. No one's that stupid. PS - don't speed over the 6 foot brush pile in the middle of the road if you don't want to fall in a trench next time... get off your own soapbox> Tree Spikes and Environmentalist Sociopaths 21.09.2005 - 21:52 In 1987, a saw exploded in a mill workers face when it hit a spike in a redwood log. His jugular was lacerated, his teeth were knocked out, and his jaw was broken it two places. By all accounts, he's lucky that he wasn't killed. Dave Foreman, founder of Earth First! and proponent of tree spiking, said this in response to the incident: "I think it's unfortunate that somebody got hurt, but you know I quite honestly am more concerned about old growth forests, spotted owls, wolverines, and salmon - and nobody is forcing people to cut those trees." What a sociopath. Foreman, and so many other like him, have no compassion or sympathy for the suffering of others. It makes me sick. Moon Muffin> And from the grassy knoll.... 22.09.2005 - 06:56 Obviously I have given you wackos too much credit....Assasinating Presidents, etc....When did you get back from your alien abduction?...Did they probe you also?....It is now completely understandable how you can spew your rhetoric and act like the lies you speak are actually true....In addition to the account from Moon, try a simple search of the internet for similar incidents and read accounts for ELF.....I just happen to have a large metal spike that destroyed equipment at a local mill (give instructions on how to post a picture, not that you would believe it)fortunately the chunks of flying metal didn't hurt anyone in this case. As for people with connections..Look up the domestic terrorist listed by the FBI, never mind they make that up....Just for starters - Ever heard of Tre Arrow? You are pathetic, to say the least......PS change the tin foil in your room they can see you moving... Chane Sau> Tree Sitters are the New Cowboys 22.09.2005 - 07:43 Moon Muffin, you say you're a rancher. The old symbol of free America: a cowboy. What happened to you guys? Corporate America is walking over the rancher, the farmer, the chicken rancher. Instead of free range, we now have feed lots. And what do the cowboys do? They roll over. Where's your courage and your will? Why do you let yourselves be tromped by corporate types? Today's cowboy still surrounds himself with symbols of strength and force: Guns and monstrous trucks. But they're weak. Not only do they bow to factory farms and feed lots, but they vote for it: See: W. Bush. --------- You talk about freedom in such grand terms but the first time someone burns a flag, you want to encroach upon the freedoms my grandfather died to protect. You say that anyone who criticizes the U.S. Government shouldn't receive anything from them. Burning a flag may be the most American thing you can do. It is total expression of this country's ideals (not always reached) of freedom. Maybe you would be more comfortable in France where there is no right to free speech. Tree sitters are the new American vitality in action. They bow to no one. They make their own rules. And they live by them. Tree sitters are what cowboys used to be. They're fierce in body and intellect. The traditional ways--the ways that you ascribe to--are not enough. They want something new. And what is more American than wanting something new? Good luck, Mr. Moon Muffin, when the bank comes for your ranch. Remember then who you voted for. P. S. Sorry you're not willing to say no to violence. Silent Type> Earth Calling Silent Type!!!! 22.09.2005 - 08:25 You don't have the qualities to even begin to know what a real cowboy is....And it definitely doesn't go by the name of Moon Muffin - No offense Moon- ...And you are right though, I most certainly voted for GW and would again in a heart beat.. The real cowboys I know and work with don't drive big trucks, we drive work trucks, we do however tend to shoot some big guns, but I'd say it's safe to say that we all have at least one lever action for the saddle. We work for a living and don't expect anyone to come rescue us, but many of us have helped out to rescue others, I could go on with what we are and what real Americans beleive, but let me make one thing clear, burn a flag in our presence and you will at a minimum get you ass kicked - male or female..Call it our freedom of expression...I'll tell you a little story, since this is long anyway, At a recent rodeo, a spectator in front of me held his middle finger high and proud during the National Anthem, his right to free speech, you may say...As soon as the Anthem was over he was promptly smacked up side the the head not just once by me, but again from the lady near him on the other side because she didn't think I had done it good enough, the young puke took it upon himself to find somewhere else to sit, like you I will gladly go to jail for my beliefs..unlike me, you are nothing but a hinderence to this country and if your Grandfather actually served this country then 2 facts are clear....He's turning in his grave, and you are definitely a disgrace to his name....Freedom is a right the is earned and not to be abused...a point that you obviously missed... another point you may get is that some real cowboys are long winded....me I just found the hat. Chane Sau> Silent Type: 22.09.2005 - 09:12 1) I'm not a cowboy. I get my meats and veggies from the Ashland Community Food Store. Free range, of course. 2) You are a bigot and a liar. 3) Get a fucking clue. Moon Muffin> Check Your Boots, Son -- Bullshit 22.09.2005 - 09:21 Chain Sau, Son, I do believe you're a rancher because you know your bullshit. So you smacked a kid at a rodeo? You break the law (assault and battery) and then cloak yourself in the flag? Then you whine when tree-sitters break the law. What weakness. What good ol' fashion bullshit. Check your boots, son. This is what educated folk call "unrefective patriotism." It's kind of like patriotism, but more like fascism. It's a precursor to American Talibanism (sorry for the big fancy $.05 words, Chain Sau). It's good that as the cowboys bloats and gloats a new model for young people arises, the tree sitter. Young people need to know there are actually people who take action instead of just sitting on the back of the truck kicking cow patties. Slapping the kid at the rodeo? That shows a lack of restraint. That's not stregnth. It's weakness. And young men, in particular--I am one--need to understand what real stregnth is. Refraining from hitting others, that's called restraint. It's necessary for civilzation to work. Not shooting at people b/c you disagree with them. That's the same thing. It's called restraint. It's strenght in action. Again, Chain Sau, how are you doing financially? Any liens on the ol' family ranch? If so, what are you going to do about it? Vote corporate mouthpiece Bush again. The people that call themselves "cowboys" today, they're the American Taliban. It's not a far step from smacking a kid at the rodeo to beheading them in a soccer field. It's only a matter of degree. I say that tree-sitters are the new vitality of America. They are what cowboys are supposed to be. They're independent. Intellectually and otherwise. Tree sitters believe in action more than words. Tree sitters ride out there on the edge of civilization. Modern-day "cowboys" are old and fat. How many fat tree-sitters do you see? Now go to the rodeo and look at the folks in the crowd. It's a wonder the bleachers can even hold them. Modern day "cowboys" drive fat old trucks, as fat on oil as the "cowboy" is on ignorance and propaganda. These so-called cowboys rage every once in while--as you have done, Chain Sau, in your comment, talking about smacking a kid at the rodeo--and then they lay down and turn over for every corporate type that sends them a letter. You thank your god, you say, every day for good clean air. But it's going to be the tree sitters that provide you that air. And it's going to be their friends that stop the corporate take over of your ranch. I'd rather you just said, Thank you. And went mosying on your way, cowboy. And do I really think you smacked anybody? No. That's what I call a bunch of bullshit. Check your boots, son. Silent Type> To Moon Muffin 22.09.2005 - 09:36 You say I'm a bigot and a liar. Sorry if you believe I'm a bigot. I'm not, but at least you made your argument. Such as it was. But liar? You've got your work cut out for you. Eight foot or 6 ft, the trees stay in the ground. That's my position. That's been my position. I don't know how wide they are; I don't care. If you think I've lied, make your argument. Or shut it. The same way that I confused you for Chain Sau in the last comment, I think you've got me confused for someone else. Not that it matters, really, but I'm curious "Curious." Silent Type> Actually do you think I care what you think? 22.09.2005 - 10:08 Silent I gave up trying to impress others long ago..if I don't respect you then I sure as hell don't care what you think....As for the income part of it, I usually call it flaunting when someone has to brag about how much they make, but in your case I'll make the exception, it is just under 100K and in recent years has seen the 6 digits, no liens just good hard work, sorry to blow your idea, but then again I guess you'll just discount that also. As for over-weight, I have some wonderful footage of a tree sitter being removed from the tree by a friend of mine, the sitter thought that by not wearing clothes she wouldn't be removed, wrong, all I can say and my friend can attest -poor guy-, was she needed to lose some weight and practice some feminine hygiene. Let's face it, the only thing you people have in common with cowboys would be if you served at the Little Big Horn....follow a pompus ass and give your life for something you don't know or understand, because the leader said this is what it's all about, just trust me, right along with... the check is in the mail, and I promise........... Most of your following would think differently if they really knew the facts, but there are those who still think there was a second shooter on the knoll...checked the boots and it's purely organic and smells alot better than the last protestor I was around....PS quit insulting Moon and the others, while we share some of the same beliefs I doubt they would agree with all..... Chane Sau> So little time 22.09.2005 - 11:02 1) not sure what you are "curious" about. Maybe you have me confused with someone else. 2)Chane is right. There is almost as much of what he says that I dissagree with as I agree with. 3)I STRONGLY CONDEMN ANY VIOLENCE FROM EITHER SIDE OF THIS ISSUE. ITS BULLSHIT AND DOES NOTHING TO FURTHER THE DISCUSSION. 4)That said I have not whitnessed violence toward tree sitters. Given the rough and tumble reputation of loggers, that is commendable. 5)I have whitnessed, first hand, violence from anti mgt types toward industry and agency types. We can talk about nails in roads, spikes in trees, burning offices, shit and piss dump out off trees on to people, squirt guns filled with the same and shot on people who happened to have on a green uniform. We all know it. Curious> just curious... 22.09.2005 - 11:22 for curious, chane sau, moon muffin, et al... Have any of you ever posted any "press" on this forum... journalism... news.... any pieces NOT including comments to topics initiated by somebody else? ....> Actually 22.09.2005 - 12:23 I, for one, have posted newpaper articles and press clippings on this site. Ever time I do so, they get censored immediately. The RIMC 'editors' say this is because of their posting policy, however they NEVER censor posts where anti-management proponents post articles. In fact, there's a few active posts on this site right now where people have posted articles with an anti-management bias, and they have not been removed. In fact, even when I post articles (on the right hand site of the site) that contain completely original content, they get censored within a day. No explanation. No nothing. So much for fairness. Moon Muffin> In fact ... 22.09.2005 - 12:26 ... the original article on this thread was cut-and-pasted directly from the Register Guard. Supposedly, that's against RIMC policy; however, it's stayed online nonetheless. Moon Muffin> Reminds me 22.09.2005 - 13:06 of the graph showing the relationship to the decrease of pirates to "global warming". So...> I can assume from your ignoring my post and changing the subject you do not disagree that most if not all the violence has come from the anti mgt side. Its really kind of interesting that the other side has tried and tried to get a violent reaction. Bullhorns blaring, fire alarms set off at timber sale auctions, middle fingers pointed, shit thrown, piss squirted, and always when one of them is doing it there is always his budy standing of to the side trying to catch it all on video. They never show the violence and taunting but they sure want to catch a response they can exploit in the media. Curious> Curious: First, Thanks 23.09.2005 - 07:42 Curious, First, thanks for saying you don't condone violence. Considering the situation at the Sten, this is very important. If my people were taking up arms at the Sten, I would be vocally opposed. Having said that, you've got to be kidding me. You think the pro-mgt side refrains from intimidation? You've got cowboys driving around in trucks like the Taliban looking for people to punish for transgressions against the holy book: the corporate ledger. Try re-reading this post: Chain Sau's made more than few little dips of his cowboy hat to taking people in the alley. Some loggers are to be commended. They don't vent their frustration. But I'm not talking about loggers. I'm talking about hicks and LEOs. It's reflexive. They talk about their big guns and . . . have we forgotten who's shooting at who. You want to see pro-mgt. violence, head out ot the Sten. Get up in the tree and see if your position doesn't change when you're getting shot at. Then come back to this post and talk about which side is out of control. All the sitters that I've ever talked to have a deep inner calm. They make vows before any action not to get violent. They're entire philosophy is about non-violence. You guys are just beyond reality if you want to pro-mgt espouses a non-violent philosophy. If they couldn't talk about violence, they'd have nothing to say. Silent Type> Curious 23.09.2005 - 08:28 The first time I went to a tree sit was a few years ago outside of Eureka, Ca. I brought some food for the sitters. The tree--a giant redwood--had had its limbs cut a few days before. What was left was just a sail mast. The tree was basically just a pole I asked the two guys who came down on climbing ropes if they were angry. They said they were. I asked them if they didn't want to kick someone's ass. They didn't really answer. I'm not proud of this, but this was after my first tree sit. I also asked them if they would consider violence an option. The sitters basically asked me to leave. They said that if I had violence in my heart it was best that I not be there. I've never been to a confrontation (yet) between sitters and management. So, honestly, I can't speak to the violence during a confrontation. But I do know that sitters are often asked to take up arms and they won't even consider it. I know that they make vows not to harm anyone before they go to a sit. So, when you start talking about violence . . . I have seen violence committed by the other side. I've seen men in bars threatening to go shoot people. I've heard hicks threaten and I've seen them throw things at peace ralleys. I have no doubt which side uses violence. It's pro-mgt. If you consider sitters using blow horns violence, well, that's your choice. I reserve that word for gunplay, fisticuffs etc. P.S. Curious in the future, don't try to claim a rhetorical victory in my abscence. I didn't write back b/c I was at work. I guarantee that I won't be conceding any points to you anytime soon. I've heard what you've had to say and it's just malarkey through and through. You don't know what you're talking about. Silent Type> ELF 23.09.2005 - 09:02 I guess that ELF and others are pro-mgnt? Peaceful sitter by day, frustrated environmentalist by night. Get real Silent....I would bet that if most of the protestors weren't stoned out of reality they would be violent face to face instead if in the dark.....The only thing they have going for them is faith...proven fact you can't fight faith...doesn't make it right..... Chane Sau> OK 23.09.2005 - 09:20 I do not condone violence. Equally I do not condone trying to encite violence. Your discription of "non violent tree sitters" is bullshit and just isn't born out by the facts of their past preformances. I have listed here over and over again the violent behavior I have witnessed with the intent of causing a violent reaction from the pro mgt folks. By the way I didn't hear a condemnation of that from you. I have not witnessed violence from pro mgt people. DO NOT LUMP "HICKS AND LEO's" WITH US. Given that you and yours have continually lied and distorted the facts I cannot believe anything you say including "gunshots at Sten". Lie to me once I look pretty hard at anything you say. Lie to me twice I doubt everything you say. Lie to me again and if you tell me the sky is blue I'll go outside and double check and until then I'll assume your'e telling another lie. Curious> Do you know 23.09.2005 - 09:39 anyone who likes to be called a hick? I would guess that the answer is no. Hick is a term that is used to describe a social group, a economic level, a population based on geographic local, generally a skin color, and isn't said as a compliment. Substitute for that word, the word that would be used for any other racial, social, or economic group and you are using words that we shoul all find offensive. It's been said before and I think it is important that your anger/passion seems more directed at a social group/order than at anything else. It is hard to talk enviroment when that keeps shinning through brighter than anything. Cuious> Blind Faith 23.09.2005 - 09:57 Curious, Do you mean faith such as R. Limbaugh saying: "I don't believe in global warming. I believe in God. And I don't believe he would give us the power to do that." Or do you mean faith such as Chain Sau saying (paraphrase): "I don't believe that humans can hurt mother nature. It will all grow back after the next ice age." Or faith such as Bush saying . . . geez what doesn't the guy attribute to his Christist faith? Take your pick: God is on our side in this war. God has made this country great. etc. Is that the kind of blind faith you're talking about? Enviros see a problem and they're doing something about it. They don't have faith. They're not even sure they're going to stop the environmental degradation. But they are not basing their actions on the end result. They're doing something b/c somebody has to you. Your side is like a petulent child that doesn't want to do its chores. You know chores need to be done, but it's just too much work, so you deny. Silent Type> A Few Things 23.09.2005 - 10:22 1. Tree sitter violence: a. It's ridiculous to be talking about this when they're the ones being shot at. b. I can't disprove what you're saying: you have seen sitters commit violent acts. It's like trying to disprove that aliens exist. You'd have to scour the entire unvierse in order to prove their not there. You're clever for trying to get me in this bind, but it's just not going to work. You say you saw sitter violence. I doubt it, but I wasn't there. What I have said is that your story doesn't fit with ANYTHING that I've seen. Your facts sound dubious. 2. You've also been clever in your arguments about violence in general. While Chain Sau tries to show me he's ready to outdo everyone with violence, you're busy trying to show me how non-violent you and and yours are. Paradoxically you're both claiming victories. You're side is (as usual) speaking out of both side of its mouth. 3. Faith: Man, if I had right wing tendencies and I was someone who championed logic over faith--I would just avoid this subject. The right is full of Christian faith on every subject imaginable. I mean, you've got big ones to even bring this up. Again, you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. 4. Hicks. Whether you like it or not that's whose company you share. It's not a pretty word. To me, it connotes someone of limited education with an ever-expanding discrimination sect. You personally may not be out there shooting, but the people that agree with you are. And they are hicks. I do appreciate your idea that my anger/passion is directed at a social order, but it's a limited argument that doesn't take into account who is committing acts of violence. 5. Which brings me to the question of why it is that you don't see the violence in your own community. I actually have some trust that you speak out of honesty (call me naive). You're not seeing your side's violence. But I think that may be b/c of the way you define your side. I am expected to account for every action of every tree sitter. You tell me you've seen sitter violence and ask me to account for it. Meanwhile, you hunt and peck as to who you consider to be on your side. Taking credit for this, but not for that. Pro-mgt people--hicks, loggers, LEOs--are the guys trying to use intimidation. Those ARE your people. They're on your side. Don't duck your head in the sand and say that they're all playing by the rules. B/c they're not and they'll tell you they're not. They're not ashamed. They take pride in their violence. Your argument would be like me saying, Oh those sitters who did those things you say, they're not with us. That dog don't bark. Gotta go to work. Best. Silent Type> One More Thing About Hicks 23.09.2005 - 10:35 Curious, I'm talking about people that are shooting at people and your response is to worry that I'm hurting their feelings by calling them hicks. Does that seem like "logic" to you? In some ways, I respect Chain Sau's sense of thing more than yours. He doesn't pretend to be something he's not. I can tell you think of yourself as the voice of reason, but you have these gaping holes in your worldview that only a university education could create. You're very logical in your approach, but then you just don't approach anything outside of your worldview. Silent Type> "Wasted and I can't find my way home" 23.09.2005 - 10:36 I did not speak of "Blind faith". I do not have "Blind faith". When I think of "Blind Faith", I think of one the greatest, albeit short lived, bands ever. Winwood, Clapton, etal...at thier very best. Pick up a copy of their only album, maybe we can agree on something. You have yet to condemn dumping shit, spraying piss, putting nails in roads, and burning offices. In fact you or yours said that if somebody hit a hidden trench dug in the road overnight, it was their fault for driving to fast. Great logic. Ever hear of hearing loss due to loud noises. When you put a bullhorn in somebodys ear or set off the fire alarms in a building you can cause permenant damage to the ear. Teachers do not let, for instance, little children yell in other childrens ears. This is rightfully considered violent and antisocial behavior. Again you can preach all you want about "calm" but given past behavior you will never convince me of your non-violent behavior/intent. Curious> Finally ...a start 23.09.2005 - 10:47 Finally Silent has said something that I whole heartedly agree with....(paraphrase)The environmentalist don't look at the end result of their actions........If the environmentalist did look at the end result of what they keep asking for, and what their beautiful untouched forests look like,(Kalamiopsis anyone)I doubt most of them would say they have been sucessful and better yet show me a preserved, static state, Old Growth forest. Now if the truth is, they just want to stop logging, then there is no reason to look beyond thier nose.......And Silent "faith" in almost every case you cited, is a belief not able to be backed by facts, but sometimes based somewhat by someones preceived "facts". Chane Sau> Clarification 23.09.2005 - 10:57 a simple example of "faith" for silent.....I have FAITH the you will discount what is said if it doesn't fit your way of thinking, regardless of the facts. Chane Sau> Hate 23.09.2005 - 14:38 Silent, You keep ranting about hicks, the political right, police officers, and Rush Limbaugh. What do any of these peole have to do with land management? What do any of these people have to do with the timber industry? All of your arguments seem to be based not on the merits of what federal land managers are trying to do. Instead you make your arguments by attempting to marginalize, categorize, and demonize those with whom you disagree. You've said that your argument is an emotional one, not a factual one. You're absolutely right. Your argument is based out of nothing but hatred. You, sir (madam?), are a hateful and bigoted human being of the highest order. Moon Muffin> No violence?!? 23.09.2005 - 18:26 There ARE several who posted on the Portland IMC site that definitely condone and promote violence.  http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/09/324699.shtml One definition of violence could mean; intent to do harm to another, regardless of what that harm might be. The protesters want to harm honest, hardworking, bill-paying people and their families by eliminating their jobs and their way of life. Doesn't that qualify as "violence". Also, calling people "hicks" can also be a form of violence, in that the term is intended to break ones resolve and self-worth. If you can label people as hicks, the you could be labeled as "eco-freaks". (Yes, I have used that term before, sparingly, and I did not anticipate the anger it invoked. Yes, ANGER! I now use the term "preservationist") Think about how violence of all kinds hurt people. Goober McNertney> Still waiting 26.09.2005 - 13:42 for the outrage. Where is your outrage when it comes to tree sitter/anti mgt violence. I don't want denile, I want condemnation. Curious> To Curious 26.09.2005 - 14:35 First, it's spelled "denial." Second, of course I don't condone violence against pro-mgt. With blowhorns or tubs of fat frothy urine. I've said this several different times in several different ways. (Did you get hit with one of the blow horns, by chance? That would explain why you haven't heard me.) I think you should just tell your story. What did you see the sitters doing that was violent? Tell your story. What did you see and hear? The center must hold here. There must not be a widening gyre of violence. We--you and I--are in agreement. But if you want outrage from me, I reserve it for who I see as the aggressors. Pro-mgt. Silent Type> Silent Type, 26.09.2005 - 15:00 I think you might be the one who is 'deaf'. Curious and Chane have given you numerous examples of tree-sitter and protester violence. Spikes in roads and trees, roads dug out in the middle of the night, firebombed offices, piss and feces thrown from trees at foresters and workers, screaming through bullhorns directly into bidders ears, etc., etc. You asked a question, and you got an answer. Asking again and again won't change the result. Moon Muffin> For Silent Type 29.09.2005 - 08:10 For the sake of time and the fact that 39 comments didn't make it clear to the layman.....Silent Type's answer to the question is something like this...."The violence and demise of our society is from the people who actually want to use our "Renewable Natural Resources" for the betterment of the American people. These people don't understand that it is OK for the rest of society to have to live under bridges as long as the government takes care of you. This can be done if they would just tax the rich and give to the poor. Stop capatistic profit, promote welfare, advocate civil disobedience and do what ever necessary to get what we say is right regardless of the facts. Think of us as the New Cowboys, the modern day Robin Hoods, here to save you from whatever it is that you don't think you need saved from".... And by the way we're with local Anarchist and we're here to hurt you....oops I mean help you....(damn freudian slip) Hope this takes some of your pain away Silent, cause I feel your pain and I want to help.... Really. Chane Sau> Shell casings 01.10.2005 - 11:00 It seems everyone got into whos blood runs red white and blue over the past few comments and got away from the attempted murder in the Mckenzie. I know the agro defenders in the Sten timber sale and I also help set up the press conference to announce the 6 rounds shot near them and the arrow from a compound bow just nicking another sitter 2 weeks later. the reason we know it was a 45 is because the sitters found 4 casings on the road below the sit. They also heard these predators yelling "where are those tree huggers." the evidence is there, the action to take next isn't so clear. 45> Sooo ... 01.10.2005 - 13:22 If they're so sure that they were shot at, why didn't they file police reports? Or was this nothing but a publicity stunt from the very beginning? Moon Muffin> moon muffin = moon shit 01.10.2005 - 22:23 either moon muffin is some sort of fed who just writes his or her bull shit to keep us all within this internet world and if this is the case he or she is doing a very good job. And if not and moon muffin is serious about what they're saying... i would love to put a 45 slug into that worthless brain. 45> Got proof?!? 02.10.2005 - 10:05 Of course, violence should be frowned upon by both sides. Which brings up conspiracy theories, in my head. First of all, are there ANY third-party witnesses? It would be quite "convenient" that an accusation of this type could help bolster the lagging arguments and attention, specifically, to their protest and, generally, to their propaganda efforts nationawide. Even highly liberal newspapers are not carrying many stories of anti-management protests. The lack of a police report and solid evidence COULD indicate a hoax. There's all kinds of "crazy" people in this world, and I do not doubt that there ARE people capable of lobbing a few bullets into the foliage above the tree sitters, though not intending to come close. I also think that the protest community could and would do ANYTHING to improve the pitiful effectiveness of their actions. 45 is a prime example of misguidedness and ignorance to the extreme. "Non-violent", my ass! Goober McNertney> 45 03.10.2005 - 13:28 thank you for proving beyond a shadow of a doubt your violent intent towards pro-mgt types. By the way have you read the post on here regarding metaphores and semiles...it fits you well...take a look. I can walk any road on the Willamette and pick up enough brass to "prove" that the second battle of the bulge had been fought there. Next time any of you are up there check it out...there are shell casings of all calibers scattered through the forest. What I'm trying to say is because of the lack of honesty from tree sitters in the past....I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. Curious> 45 is the norm??? 04.10.2005 - 07:03 Hey Silent Type, you have spanked me for my veiws on flag burners and said how pro-management is the violent side of the equation. What do call the idea of actually putting a bullet in someones head? As for 45, did you find the arrow casings also, to prove the size of the bow?:) It is easier to cut yourself than to shoot yourself, but not to tough to fire off a clip and say "they shot at us". Come on down and file the report, have the "victims" talk to the police, do the interviews and see if the details really match up..doubtful. Conclusion - Just like a little child if you can't get your way, make a scene (tell a lie), if that doesn't work get violent. The way of the typical protestor of today - not a true environmentalist of yesterday. Chane Sau> Why no censorship?? 06.10.2005 - 19:16 Since the original article is reprinted from a newspaper article, why hasn't RIMC pulled THIS thread??.....HMMMMMM! Hotfeet> Homepage:: http://www.foreststewardsguild.org